Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default Outstanding write up on Privacy, traffic stops, and article 1 section 8

    http://d-scholarship.pitt.edu/17940/1/115-229-1-SM.pdf

    Worth checking out. Especially the court rulings that say crossing the white line doesn’t meet a probable cause standard for pulling you over.
    "Cives Arma Ferant"

    "I know I'm not James Bond, that's why I don't keep a loaded gun under the pillow, or bang Russian spies on a regular basis." - GunLawyer001

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Outstanding write up on Privacy, traffic stops, and article 1 section 8

    Quote Originally Posted by PAMedic=F|A= View Post
    http://d-scholarship.pitt.edu/17940/1/115-229-1-SM.pdf

    Worth checking out. Especially the court rulings that say crossing the white line doesn’t meet a probable cause standard for pulling you over.
    Read a few pages but realized that is a REALLY long Legal note. How about the Cliff not version for people like me with internet attention deficit disorders,

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Outstanding write up on Privacy, traffic stops, and article 1 section 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Delkal View Post
    Read a few pages but realized that is a REALLY long Legal note. How about the Cliff not version for people like me with internet attention deficit disorders,
    Most of you people are locked at home with. I thing to do.

    Every page is worth reading, because you should know your rights.
    "Cives Arma Ferant"

    "I know I'm not James Bond, that's why I don't keep a loaded gun under the pillow, or bang Russian spies on a regular basis." - GunLawyer001

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Outstanding write up on Privacy, traffic stops, and article 1 section 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Delkal View Post
    Read a few pages but realized that is a REALLY long Legal note. How about the Cliff not version for people like me with internet attention deficit disorders,
    Quote Originally Posted by PAMedic=F|A= View Post
    Most of you people are locked at home with. I thing to do.

    Every page is worth reading, because you should know your rights.

    I read the entire thing and just finished, and the conclusion covers everything there is to know about the paper. Most importantly, that there's a confusion of standards applied to traffic vs terry stops and the legislature's intent to lower the standard for DUI stops. The PA Supreme Court has always held a single standard for traffic stops... Cops are required to have probable cause that the driver is in violation of the motor vehicle code (They have to SEE the violation, and can't take a "tip" from a citizen, for example). However, the state wants them to have the lower standard of reasonable suspicion for DUI stops and right now, the applicable code is incongruent with the Supreme Court's long standing standard of probable cause. This has yet to be remedied by with the legislature or the courts.

    However, in arriving to the conclusion, the author notes that Article 1 Section 8 of the PA Constitution is primarily about the right to privacy, when compared to the 4th Amendment that has the primary concern of ensuring police don't over reach. In this analysis he points out how police in PA, due to the probable cause standard mentioned previously, cops cannot pull you over for "where a vehicle is driven outside the land of traffic for just a momentary period of time and in a minor manner, a traffic stop is unwarranted."

    Page 355, the Case Law Conclusions, is worth reading. It concludes, "First, probably cause is the standard that has always been applied to routine traffic stops in Pennsylvania." He then talks about the confusion between traditional terry stops where reasonable suspicion standards apply, and the problem with DUI being in the vehicle code of PA requiring probable cause while the legislature wants the lower standard of reasonable suspicion. He says that the distinction has been lost in the Superior court. Second, he talks about the "PA Supreme Court, more than most any court in the union, has deviated from the SCOTUS standards in cases where the rights to privacy in Article 1 Section 8 are threatened by federal precedent." "When the privacy interest embodied in the state constitution is threatened, only serious societal interests may justify even limited intrusions upon that right."




    My take is that this is all academic and another example of the confusion that our courts and legislature has foisted upon the People (and the cops that have to figure out where they stand on any given stop) and we need a learned and skilled attorney to navigate the messes created. However, I'm impressed at the Supreme's of PA consistently upholding the rights of the People while lower courts and the legislature seek to lower the standards.
    Last edited by JustinHEMI; March 24th, 2020 at 02:20 AM.
    Life has a melody.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Outstanding write up on Privacy, traffic stops, and article 1 section 8

    This is great. Fuck your checkpoint.
    Si vis pacem, para bellum
    μολ ν λαβέ
    What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms!

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Outstanding write up on Privacy, traffic stops, and article 1 section 8

    I will read it later today but would caution other readers that it is a law review article from 2007. An awful lot of case law can change in 13 years (I retired after 40 years as a prosecutor and criminal defense attorney from Delaware) Thanks for the link.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Outstanding write up on Privacy, traffic stops, and article 1 section 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Jsandy51 View Post
    I will read it later today but would caution other readers that it is a law review article from 2007. An awful lot of case law can change in 13 years (I retired after 40 years as a prosecutor and criminal defense attorney from Delaware) Thanks for the link.
    Definitely nothing in it should be used as legal advice.
    Life has a melody.

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