Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #51
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    Default Re: Leo running serial on CCW for allegedly rolling through a stop sign.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt.K View Post
    While I think that PAMedic can occasionally get a bit... overzealous (not wrong, just overzealous IMO)… I have told you, Carson, that I appreciate what you can offer from your view of the world. All that said, with respect to all parties...

    Carson, please cite all legislation or rules that exempt a roadside interaction from section 6111. I expect they will mostly fall under "officer safety" or confiscation pursuant to an arrest.
    After reading the entire section two times (thanks for the refresher ) I don't believe it applies. In my opinion it strictly applies to a sale or (permanent) transfer of a defined firearm. Just like a short investigatory detention is not considered an arrest, a short investigation would not be considered a transfer or confiscation or as Medic puts it a "theft".

    Now let me clarify that I don't approve of the whole "running the serial number to check the registration" crap. I know that some guns won't be listed and that is totally alright. We have been trained and updated on the non-registry numerous times and guys still want to run the serial number. Reports that I have seen still say "gun registered to ... or no registered owner found." Only some detectives correctly state ROS checked.

    However I do know of some circumstances where the police took control of a weapon for a short time, less than an hour, and then returned it to the owner or other qualified person without running a PICS check. One instance was a medical emergency where the person had to be taken by medic unit and a firearm was turned over to a LTCF holding spouse who arrived shortly thereafter. Another was an accusation of a gun being fired, an inspection of the firearm showed it was clean as a whistle. The horror stories get all the attention on here, many times things go much simpler, as they should.
    Last edited by Carson; March 18th, 2020 at 08:18 PM.

  2. #52
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    Default Re: Leo running serial on CCW for allegedly rolling through a stop sign.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carson View Post
    Come on Medic, you are being a little ridiculous now.

    You mean to tell me that during a legitimate stop or interaction, if I take hold of your weapon, for a short period of time, I have stolen it from you and/or I need to conduct a PICS check to return it ?
    If you are on the job & I am not being arrested there is no reason for you to ever touch my weapon. My keys. My coffee cup, or my person. If you want to come over to my house drink beer & shoot, I’d feel differently (except about the last part).

    I’ll put it another way. If I borrow your squad car for a period of time, in this case over in hour, would it be considered and treated as a theft? Maybe just the shotgun out of it?

    Maybe your lawn mower?

    Some of us have very firm views on property, because we understand, as the founders did, that the ownership and control of property is the basis for all liberty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carson View Post
    I have gotten that same response from younger cops when that comment comes up. I then ask them are you going to run their iPhone, iPad, wristwatch, computer, tablet, etc. for wants. They all may be stolen also. Crickets.
    I appreciate that. To follow up on another your most recent post: this wasn’t brief (not that it would be acceptable). It was an during an illegal detainment that lasted an hour and a half. The OP did not retain any control of the firearm, as he would of letting someone else use it at the range. He couldn’t say “time to leave” or “that was unsafe, you’re done” and get his property back.


    PA state ems protocols say some very illegal things when it comes to what we’re supposed to do with firearms. The protocol also violates state ems regulations, and the whole thing violates state preemptions as the bureau of ems as no authority to regulate firearms. Had a State ems worker look me up after I wrote them a nasty email since it was a week before the required training on the new ems protocols had to be followed, according to their regulations. To follow them you had to have their training. Which they had not published. According to the law, every ambulance service in the state would have had to close, you know, if we followed the rules. Since he called me, I brought up the firearms stuff, since you know, it involved serious felonies/Misdemeanor for having control of a firearm without act 235 or a LTCF.

    Short version is we try and hand it to a cop. Cops have a bunch of rules for firearms, don’t want it, might refuse to take it and no way in hell most of us on this forum would risk that headache.
    Or we take control of it, and put it in an ambulance compartment, preferably a locked one (many don’t have locked compartments). Of course, if my partner, who does not have a ltcf does such a thing, and she isn’t prohibited it is only a misdemeanor that makes her prohibited. Because she now has a firearm, without an exemption or a LTCF. She obviously has control of said firearm, because she has control to the compartment. And there is no “ems exemptions” in the law.

    He wasn’t amused. And you might say “no one would ever be charged for that”, but we both know better. Look at the security guard In philly who shot a mugger, with the muggers gun. Philly cops investigation said nothing to see here. Bad guy 0, good guy 1. Philly DA charged the security guard, who had act 235, with a firearms violation because he did not have a LTCF, even though having act 235 is clearly an exemption.

    Sooner or later someone in ems is going to get burned over it. I personally will never take custody of another persons firearm unless I could justify it as solidly as I could providing treatment against their stated wishes, and would only do so in a situation where I had to treat someone against their wishes (Example: disorientated head injury). I’d they’re oriented, they’re keeping it. If they’re a threat, I’m leaving, and I’ll stay gone until the nice police man makes the bad man behave. I believe dealing breaking the (illegal) ems regulations is better then breaking the law and risking jail time, or being sued for patient abandonment (I’ve heard some people in ems say they would avoid the situation by refusing to transport an armed person).



    Likewise I disagree that it doesn’t apply. I can not just give my sister my firearm for a “short period of time” say a week, because she lives in the city and people are fighting or toilet paper. She must jump through hoops & have a LTCF.


    Sorry about the long post. I know you have thick skin. :-).
    Last edited by PAMedic=F|A=; March 18th, 2020 at 11:00 PM.
    "Cives Arma Ferant"

    "I know I'm not James Bond, that's why I don't keep a loaded gun under the pillow, or bang Russian spies on a regular basis." - GunLawyer001

  3. #53
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    Default Re: Leo running serial on CCW for allegedly rolling through a stop sign.

    Having read over 6111 I agree that as the OP had a LTCF and cops are considered to have a LTCF, an illegal transfer did not happen under state law.

    I suspect however that the officers police report may violate state law as it has personally identifiable information in it, such as the OP’s name which violates the Confidentiality clause included in transfers.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by PAMedic=F|A=; March 18th, 2020 at 11:12 PM. Reason: Totally still theft though.
    "Cives Arma Ferant"

    "I know I'm not James Bond, that's why I don't keep a loaded gun under the pillow, or bang Russian spies on a regular basis." - GunLawyer001

  4. #54
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    Default Re: Leo running serial on CCW for allegedly rolling through a stop sign.

    Quote Originally Posted by PAMedic=F|A= View Post
    Having read over 6111 I agree that as the OP had a LTCF and cops are considered to have a LTCF, an illegal transfer did not happen under state law.

    I suspect however that the officers police report may violate state law as it has personally identifiable information in it, such as the OP’s name which violates the Confidentiality clause included in transfers.

    Thoughts?
    I fought the ticket and was told there was no police report I could subpoena or no field notes to know where he was parked at. So it makes it hard to challenge the case. I feel that if I have my ccp. That why should my stops take 15-20 longer then someone who does not? Why should I have to sit while the cop questions me why my name is appearing on some list of gun ownership? He should take secure it. Write my ticket and then release it. But no it was ran through stolen gun and some pa database that shows ownership. Does have have specific laws I can recite during my hearing. I don't have any traffic attorneys around me or civil right attorney. This shouldn't be the normal. The chief of police was at the magistrate when I was there and I asked him and he said that's the normal thing. Well that's bullshit and people need to regain control. He had no reason at all to thing it's illegal. I have a valid CCWP and it was for rolling through a stop sign.

  5. #55
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    Default Re: Leo running serial on CCW for allegedly rolling through a stop sign.

    Quote Originally Posted by abner13 View Post
    I've been told they have to check if it's stolen.
    That what I was told as well. Although I don't believe it. He didn't check if my pants or bah was stolen. He can secure it end of story I shouldn't be subjected to 15 mins of questioning because I hold a CCP. I was told I had to give my gun up and was asked if I had any weapons. I have no priors, no tickets no nothing. So for him to think I was any threat was crazy.

  6. #56
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    Default Re: Leo running serial on CCW for allegedly rolling through a stop sign.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carson View Post
    I have gotten that same response from younger cops when that comment comes up. I then ask them are you going to run their iPhone, iPad, wristwatch, computer, tablet, etc. for wants. They all may be stolen also. Crickets.
    Same comment I have given to my guys, but they now understand the point I was trying to get across.

  7. #57
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    Default Re: Leo running serial on CCW for allegedly rolling through a stop sign.

    Quote Originally Posted by PAMedic=F|A= View Post
    If
    Likewise I disagree that it doesn’t apply. I can not just give my sister my firearm for a “short period of time” say a week, because she lives in the city and people are fighting or toilet paper. She must jump through hoops & have a LTCF.


    Sorry about the long post. I know you have thick skin. :-).
    Just to clarify for newbies reading...... this only applies to handguns, not rifles or shotguns which you can lend in Pa unless you have a reason to believe the person is prohibited.
    Proof Armed citizens make a difference. http://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.php?t=316012

  8. #58
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    Default Re: Leo running serial on CCW for allegedly rolling through a stop sign.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guerndt View Post
    I fought the ticket and was told there was no police report I could subpoena or no field notes to know where he was parked at. So it makes it hard to challenge the case. I feel that if I have my ccp. That why should my stops take 15-20 longer then someone who does not? Why should I have to sit while the cop questions me why my name is appearing on some list of gun ownership? He should take secure it. Write my ticket and then release it. But no it was ran through stolen gun and some pa database that shows ownership. Does have have specific laws I can recite during my hearing. I don't have any traffic attorneys around me or civil right attorney. This shouldn't be the normal. The chief of police was at the magistrate when I was there and I asked him and he said that's the normal thing. Well that's bullshit and people need to regain control. He had no reason at all to thing it's illegal. I have a valid CCWP and it was for rolling through a stop sign.
    He had no reason to take it. He had no justification at all. The chief was lying, or his dept. is regularly engaging in illegal activities.

    Even Carson, who is one of the evil philly cops we all fear ;-) didn’t defend anything that criminal, other then to disagree with me about if is was infact an illegal transfer.

    I would say fighting the ticket is less important then sueing them.
    "Cives Arma Ferant"

    "I know I'm not James Bond, that's why I don't keep a loaded gun under the pillow, or bang Russian spies on a regular basis." - GunLawyer001

  9. #59
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    Default Re: Leo running serial on CCW for allegedly rolling through a stop sign.

    Quote Originally Posted by PAMedic=F|A= View Post
    He had no reason to take it. He had no justification at all. The chief was lying, or his dept. is regularly engaging in illegal activities.

    Even Carson, who is one of the evil philly cops we all fear ;-) didn’t defend anything that criminal, other then to disagree with me about if is was infact an illegal transfer.

    I would say fighting the ticket is less important then sueing them.
    Who would I even contact. I called 3 local lawyers. I live in 15801 clearfield county and noone is even returning my call since it didn't lead to any charges.

  10. #60
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    Default Re: Leo running serial on CCW for allegedly rolling through a stop sign.

    It sounds to me like this cop is one of the few that are against civilians carrying concealed. Thats why he gave you such an extreme ticket, because he couldn't do anything about your right to conceal carry.

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