Interesting observation tied to Covid-19

[abner13]

I've known and work with a lot of people who came from Russia , Ukraine , Poland , E.Germany , etc after the Fall of the Wall , not speaking a word of English. Now , they speak better than many people who lived here all their lives , and most are relatively accent free.

[buckengr]

Maybe we could just eliminate the need to fill out forms in order to buy an item that you have a natural right to own? If we're concerned about dangerous felons getting their hands on firearms, maybe we should keep those dangerous felons in a place where they can't get their hands on firearms, or any of us, until they're no longer dangerous. And perhaps we could build a wall at the border and guard it to ensure that violent criminals don't enter the country illegally.

Then, it wouldn't really matter what language you can or can't speak, read, or write in order to exercise your natural human right to keep and bear arms.

Just a few of my humble thoughts.

[dannyb]

I started this thread with the idea that all official forms should be available with the same translations rather than there being one set for this department and a different set for another. I have lived among several immigrant communities and have an understanding of the problem which goes beyond "English please, this is America." Many immigrants, including those from Asia, speak English at a good day-to-day level for business and social communication. The countries they come from, however, may very well have official documents that are traps for the unwary. So, here they are, trying to purchase a firearm, something that might end up with them standing on the gallows trap in their former country, and they are presented a form that, to them, may have all kinds of nuance that could land them in horrible trouble. Those of us who were born here have a true carelessness about what we read and sign. Just think of the old software end users agreements; for all we know the term "and your first born child will be given to us for sacrifice to Molok" is buried in the middle of the pages of dense text allowing you to use the free clip art.
So, I am pointing out that there is more than just a simple language problem here, it's a full cultural issue that needs addressing. If a consent for surgery, clearly a right rather than a privilege, is translated into however many languages, why not this form?

[alpacaheat]

Before your observations turn into accusations, I do believe that there is a cultural issue as well, but we may not agree on the details of it.

Some may have a desire that we as a nation be a completely open, welcoming nation to people of all nations, languages and nationalities, the "melting pot" dream.

While aside from terrorist nations, I do agree we should not discriminate against anyone who wishes to come seek citizenship correctly and legally.

However, here's where I disagree with some open immigration people...I do believe that learning English should be a prerequisite for citizenship. It's not on the welcoming nation to have the responsibility to accommodate every language in the world. That not only makes it difficult for public services like government, hospitals and schools but it's infinitely expensive. This also helps maintain cultural divides as we do see micro-nations being set up around the country like the Muslim/Somoli settlements in Michigan and Minnesota, Asian and Hispanic-only portions of most major cities, etc.

The end-goal of someone immigrating into another nation, whether the USA or any other nation in the world should be assimilation into that culture. Pride about your roots does not need to be sacrificed and abandoned, but when it comes to being a functioning, contributing member of society, you need to know the language and contribute TO the economy, not be a leech upon it by demanding they cater to your inability to speak the language and/or support yourself financially.

It's not racist for demanding guests in our nation actually contribute to it and have some pride for the nation that has welcomed them in and provided the greatest opportunity of any country on the planet.

[Pilot321]

Only one thing to tell them. Rotsa Ruck! Oh, that's Japanese. Never mind.

[fallenleader]

the obvious solution to this is to do away with the 4473 and go back to a constitutional measure of gun sales.
"this person looks shady, i will reserve my right as a private business owner not to serve them"
or "oh, look. they seem nice, they have money, heres your gun" end of transaction.
i will be pleased when gun vending machines aren't just some 'shopped meme.

[GunLawyer001]

. . . . If a consent for surgery, clearly a right rather than a privilege, is translated into however many languages, why not this form?

While a consent for surgery form may be pivotal in a civil suit, the 4473 is often the keystone of a criminal prosecution.

Any precedent set for the English version's language would be moot if the form were in another language, and mostly, languages don't have EXACT correspondence or words. We apparently nuked a couple of Japanese cities because their translator got a word wrong in their surrender attempt.

Maybe there's no Hmong word for "conviction", maybe there's no direct translation of "dishonorable discharge" in Pacific islander languages. I dunno. But each 4473 in a new language would be "an attempt" at translation, a paraphrasing of the English version, and therefore a different document that would have to be hashed out in courts, before judges who probably don't speak that language.

[Xringshooter]

I would imagine non-citizen permanent residents would have to show documentation of their status (green card???). Maybe Xringshooter can chime in more. If an illegal immigrant has a driver's license, can they lie on the 4473 and the PICS/NICS check won't flag their immigration status?

I'll reply to several items here:

A resident alien (green card holder) has to put their AR number on the 4473 (block 13) and answer all the questions dealing with their Place or Birth, etc. on the form. Then, with their PA DL it gets called in just like any other BGC for a US/PA citizen. Normally, if I'm not sure I ask if they are a RA or a Non-Immigrant, and yes I can ask. I have not had any of them refuse to show the green card to me. After that, if they come in again, I don't ask because I already know.

A Non-Immigrant alien, needs to show me their PA DL or PA ID, their most recent I-94 number, and their current year PA Hunting license (this is a requirement in PA for a NI alien to buy a firearm and fulfills the requirement of block 18c of the 4473). I make copies of those along with a copy of the first page of their passport and that gets attached to the 4473 when I file it. The difference doing the BGC is that I have to talk to a PICS operator and give them all the info and then PICS has to get in touch with the INS to insure the person is in the US legally. Then they call me back with the approval. I have not had one disapproved yet.

Just because someone comes in with a PA DL I still am required to make sure they are allowed to buy a firearm in PA. How I do that is up to me and if the buyer doesn't like it, then no sale. If it is someone that I have never dealt with before I ask a few questions to get an idea of their residency and then may ask them to give me more information. If they do, great, we can determine if they can buy a firearm OR what they will need to do to become eligible to buy a firearm. If they balk at giving any information I politely tell them they can't purchase from me and ask them to leave. If they had ordered a firearm and had it delivered to me (I get a fair amount of deliveries with no forewarning) then I explain what can be done with the firearm.

[JenniferG]

If you need to fill out forms then it's your responsibility to bring someone with you that can speak government and translate for you. You need permission from the government to purchase a firearm, it's says it right there in the US Constitution "shall not be infringed" which means in government language "permission from the government" so your responsibility if you want to purchase a firearm is understand governmental language.

[buxbandit]

It's not unreasonable to assume that America should be a melting pot, rather than a salad bar.
Unity is what keeps civilizations together.