Duty to Inform when stopped by police

[HanzMcFeely]

You have to produce the LTCF upon "lawful demand", but there's no solid definition of what that lawful demand is.

It's not illegal to verbally lie to a PA cop, mostly (you can't falsely implicate someone else, and you can't do it in writing or under oath). So it's not a definite crime to say "no" to the at-this-moment-are-you-carrying gun question, and there are legit reasons why you might want to lie.

It IS illegal to lie to most Federal agents, although they've made it clear that they are not similarly bound with respect to lying to us.

I haven't heard of any cops getting fired for seizing guns simply because they aren't "registered" to you, based on the Record of Sale Database. Some lawfully-possessed guns aren't on the state's radar, you might have received them as gifts or purchases from dad or grandpa; but after you hand it over to the traffic cop and he calls in your name and the gun's make/model/serial number, I expect the govt keeps a record of that somewhere, or at least it easily could. So, registering all the off-books guns one at a time is bad for liberty, even if they don't unlawfully seize it for not being "registered".

You aren't going to shoot the cop, so "officer safety" is moot. And a cop in semi-darkness on the side of the road manipulating unfamiliar controls to unload the gun while negligently pointing it at your face, is NOT enhancing YOUR safety.

That being said, if you lie and they find out, it will add an ugly element to the encounter. But they aren't supposed to arrest you for that kind of lie. There's no perfect response to the question in the real world, every option carries risks, and you could end up in court trying to get your property back, or you could end up in court for some BS "obstruction" charge.

That clears things up a bit.

So basically the best answer to the question “do you have any weapons” is “i dont answer any questions without my lawyer present” and shut the hell up?

[streaker69]

"Nothing illegal in my car, sir"

Not always a good answer. I wrote about this before. Can you, even if it's your car be 100% sure there's nothing illegal in it? Unless you've never had another person inside, you can't be sure. Maybe the mechanic dropped a crack rock into your floor mats. Maybe you bought a used car and there's drugs stashed under the dashboard.

Or maybe you're driving your employer's vehicle and you find this rolling around and you're crossing into NJ, MD or DC.



Now, I wasn't crossing into those states, but I did indeed find it rolling around yesterday. It's not mine.

[Carson]

Shouldn't that all be past tense? I thought you weren't allowed to pull anyone over any more.

Can*t stop for a primary offense the following:
Expired registration
Improperly displayed reg or temp reg
Single brake light out
Item hanging from rear view mirror
Minor bumper issues
Driving with an expired inspection sticker
Driving with an expired emission sticker

Everything else is still enforceable as a primary violation.

It is not hard to avoid being stopped for the above. I don*t understand how it is harder for a minority in Philadelphia to comply.

[Carson]

You have to produce the LTCF upon "lawful demand", but there's no solid definition of what that lawful demand is.

It's not illegal to verbally lie to a PA cop, mostly (you can't falsely implicate someone else, and you can't do it in writing or under oath). So it's not a definite crime to say "no" to the at-this-moment-are-you-carrying gun question, and there are legit reasons why you might want to lie.

It IS illegal to lie to most Federal agents, although they've made it clear that they are not similarly bound with respect to lying to us.

I haven't heard of any cops getting fired for seizing guns simply because they aren't "registered" to you, based on the Record of Sale Database. Some lawfully-possessed guns aren't on the state's radar, you might have received them as gifts or purchases from dad or grandpa; but after you hand it over to the traffic cop and he calls in your name and the gun's make/model/serial number, I expect the govt keeps a record of that somewhere, or at least it easily could. So, registering all the off-books guns one at a time is bad for liberty, even if they don't unlawfully seize it for not being "registered".

You aren't going to shoot the cop, so "officer safety" is moot. And a cop in semi-darkness on the side of the road manipulating unfamiliar controls to unload the gun while negligently pointing it at your face, is NOT enhancing YOUR safety.

That being said, if you lie and they find out, it will add an ugly element to the encounter. But they aren't supposed to arrest you for that kind of lie. There's no perfect response to the question in the real world, every option carries risks, and you could end up in court trying to get your property back, or you could end up in court for some BS "obstruction" charge.

I agree with everything you said, except the bolded part. You can*t guarantee what anyone on here will do, even me. We had a couple guys with LTCF*s shoot it up on South St. in the beginning of the summer and I believe there was a guy in Montco who went ballistic and killed people after a road rage incident at a convenience store a while ago. So while a LTCF reduces, it doesn*t eliminate violence.

[Carson]

A cop would never says "give me your weapon", he would retrieve it himself. I believe the courts have ruled that cops can legally disarm you during a stop or Terry stop "for their safety". That said, if a cop wants to take my gun off me "for his safety", he had better take the holster with it or his ass is mine in court.
The courts have also ruled that police can remove your cell phone from you "for their safety", but they can't access it without a warrant. So would go for a firearm, they can remove it, thereby removing any threat, but they are not allowed to access information from it, such as the serial number or the type and number of rounds. It could also be argued that removing the gun from it's holster constitutes endangerment. Play his game, as soon as he removes it from the holster start screaming "don't shoot me, please don't shoot me". Let him explain in court why he pulled a loaded gun for no reason.

Playing stupid games on the side of the road, usually ends with winning stupid prizes on the side of the road. No matter who is playing.

[Bang]

You got me officer. I have a penis, empirical evidence that I have intent to commit a rape.

Wow. All the green lights went off on that one!

[middlefinger]

Can*t stop for a primary offense the following:
Expired registration
Improperly displayed reg or temp reg
Single brake light out
Item hanging from rear view mirror
Minor bumper issues
Driving with an expired inspection sticker
Driving with an expired emission sticker

Everything else is still enforceable as a primary violation.

It is not hard to avoid being stopped for the above. I don*t understand how it is harder for a minority in Philadelphia to comply.

new PA law regarding your tags

Your license plate frame is enough for police in Pa. to pull you over, court rules

The judges found the state’s vehicle code prohibits any part of the plate from being covered, including the visitpa.com website of the state’s

HARRISBURG — Thousands of drivers in Pennsylvania could now be at greater risk of getting pulled over by police — all because of the frame around their license plate.

A state appellate court ruling this week affirmed the right of police officers to stop drivers if any part of their license plate is obscured. That doesn’t just include the unique combination of letters and numbers that make up a person’s license plate — but any lettering — including the visitpa.com URL — or, for that matter, the paint around it.

Critics argue the decision, by a three-judge Superior Court panel, raises concerns about racial bias and other potential abuses of power by law enforcement, and could give police another pretext to pull over a driver for a seemingly trivial reason, among other wide-reaching and unintended consequences.

“At a point in time when we want to do away with pretextual stops, this decision specifically opens the door to every person being stopped at the will of police for investigation,” said Philadelphia lawyer S. Philip Steinberg, who argued against the court’s decision in the case.


A spokesperson for Philadelphia District Attorney Larry Krasner’s office, which appealed the case to the state Superior Court, called that assessment “unfair.”

The ruling, said Krasner spokesperson Dustin Slaughter, “simply confirms current case law,” and does not enable officers to employ new or different tactics when conducting traffic stops. But the ruling itself states that the decision answers a novel question before the court.

At the heart of the decision is how to interpret the language in a section of Pennsylvania’s vehicle code that prohibits license plates from being obscured.

The code states that it’s unlawful to display a license plate that is so dirty that its numbers and letters are illegible from a reasonable distance; or is obscured in such a way that a red light camera or toll collection system can’t read it; or “is otherwise illegible at a reasonable distance or is obscured in any manner.”

In their ruling, the three judges seized on the phrase “or is obscured in any manner,” which they said was a catchall phrase meant to prohibit all obstructions of any part of the plate. If the legislature only wanted to prohibit just obstructions to the license plate number and issuing authority, it would have specifically done so, the panel said.

“While we appreciate Appellee’s position that § 1332 [of the vehicle code] should be limited to the elements of a registration plate that are actually pertinent to the identification of a vehicle’s registration, that interpretation does not comport with a plain reading of the statute,” Judge Mary Jane Bowes wrote.

The ruling stems from a case involving an April 2021 traffic stop in Philadelphia during which a police officer pulled over a car because of a partially obstructed plate. What was obstructed: the strip at the bottom of the plate that lists the website of the state’s official tourism office, visitpa.com, which standard-issue license plates in Pennsylvania include.

During the stop, according to court documents, the officer noticed that the front seat passenger, Derrick Ruffin, was making “furtive movements,” as if to hide something, and conducted a “protective sweep” of the passenger seat. There he found a loaded revolver (which Ruffin was not licensed to carry), ammunition, and marijuana. The officer also found that the car was not registered, and that the driver did not have a license.

Ruffin was charged with several crimes, including carrying an unlicensed firearm.

But at a pretrial hearing last summer, a lower court suppressed the evidence the officer recovered. In its opinion, the court found that the Philadelphia police officer lacked probable cause to make the stop because the state’s vehicle code only prohibits the obstruction of a license plate number and the plate’s issuing authority. The state’s tourism website, it found, did not count toward such a violation.

The Superior Court’s three-judge panel disagreed.

https://www.bctv.org/2022/08/26/your...er-court-rules

[Pag23]

new PA law regarding your tags

Your license plate frame is enough for police in Pa. to pull you over, court rules

The judges found the state’s vehicle code prohibits any part of the plate from being covered, including the visitpa.com website of the state’s





https://www.bctv.org/2022/08/26/your...er-court-rules

Just saw this on the news...but my vehicles do not have a dealer plate surround or anything else....but I have yet to see anyone removing them on their vehicles or the tinted license plate covers either...

[ray h]

So all of those people still driving around with their old registration stickers on their plates better get rid of them.

[theduke]

So all of those people still driving around with their old registration stickers on their plates better get rid of them.

I have a River Conservation plate with over 20 years of registration stickers.