holdover for duplex reticle scopes

**WWGunslinger** · April 16th, 2017, 04:25 PM

Can anyone give me some help with estimating holdover on a duplex reticle?

I have a Bushnell 4200 8-32x on my Tikka T3 Lite in .223 that I use for groundhogs.
Been using Hornady 55 gr. Vmax factory ammo and I used Hornady's ballistic calculator and made a little sheet with how much the bullet drops at certain distances, but I'm not good at estimating the height I need to hold over.

I have it sighted in at 100 yards (range I belong to only goes to 100 yards). The last time I was there I used the bottom of the reticle, where the thin line of the crosshair meets the thick line, and it was only like a 1 inch increase. I'm not sure how that equals out at longer distances? I suck at math so not sure how to figure that out.

For instance, the chart says at 300 yards the bullet drop is 11.2 inches. How do I estimate that 11.2 inches of holdover?

**Gripsafety** · April 19th, 2017, 09:12 AM

Does the reticle only have crosshairs, or does it have any other lines or dots?

On this type of scope, the holdover changes with the distance and with the magnification you're using. Can you give me a link to the exact scope and reticle you have? I may be able to help make a simple table once I know exactly what you have.

**WWGunslinger** · April 19th, 2017, 09:26 AM

yeah, just a crosshairs, no other lines or dots.

It's this:
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/56...-reticle-matte

**aubie515** · April 19th, 2017, 04:46 PM

You are going to have issues with trying to range with your optic.

Your optic is a Second Focal Plane SFP and if you had a ranging reticle...the ranging is typically done on the highest magnification, which in your case is 32x.

Even if you calculated your drop using muzzle velocity from Hornady's box MV...you still won't be able to estimate properly because you are going to always be using 32x magnification on all of your shots.

Get an optic that uses mil/mil and learn to use the system, otherwise, you will be using "Kentucky Windage" and guessing what your DOPE is for that scope. I know I wouldn't have spent $500 on a useless optic.

**WWGunslinger** · April 19th, 2017, 04:53 PM

I've been using kentucky windage. I guess what I was asking was how to make kentucky windage easier? Like I know I need to aim say 10 inches high, but how do I estimate 10 inches without a mildot or something?

i got the scope from my dad for $100 last year, btw.

Can anyone recommend a scope for .223 Tikka T3 Lite that uses mil/mil that's around $400 or less.
What's a good magnification? I like being able to really zoom in with the higher powers to really see the hogs (my eyesight is bad, even with glasses).

**Gripsafety** · April 19th, 2017, 11:15 PM

I don't see any subtension specs on Bushnell's website, so about the only thing you can do is to put up a paper with a 1" grid at 100 yards and see what the distance between the center cross and the thick line is at that distance (this is called the subtension). Since it is a second focal plane scope, you have to pick one magnification level and stick with it, unless you want to do more math. If you do this at full power, you'll probably need at least a 24" square of 1" grid. Once you know the subtension at 100 yards, it is easy know the subtension at other distances. You just multiply the 100 yard subtension by 2 for 200 yards, 4 for 400 yards, 3.5 for 350 yards etc. On a second focal plane scope like yours, the subtension is only valid for the same magnification you chose for the test. You can do another calculation to use a different magnification, but then you have more balls in the air. Basically, if you have determined the subtension at 16X, it will double at 32X and be halved at 8X.

If you know the size of a target but not the range, you can work it backwards to get the range.

Another thing you can do is to dial in the bullet drop with the vertical turret. Each click is 1/8" at 100 yds, 1/4" at 200 yds, etc. Unless there is some way to set a zero stop, you have to carefully keep track of how many clicks you moved, as it may be several turns.

As aubie said, this is a whole lot easier, more accurate and faster if you have a mil/mil or moa/moa first focal plane scope. Take a look at Vortex scopes.

**CMP703006** · April 19th, 2017, 11:31 PM

The best way I have found is to put a target up at 100 yds with a 1" grid on it then aim at the target with the highest magnification and measure how many squares to a particular point on the reticle. For example my friend had a no name scope with some form of BDC lines on it, I set it in a lead sled aimed the crosshairs at the top of the target and counted how many inches down to each holdover. With that I could approximate the drop in MOA which wound up being approximately 100 yd increments for his .223.

For a scope I would recommend taking a look at the Vortex Viper line of scopes, a buddy of mine just picked up two for his rifles at around $330 each on Midway. I would recommend the BDC otherwise you get the odd MIL/MOA cross that doesn't work very well.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/24...-reticle-matte

This is the same scope but with a 50mm objective rather than the 44mm on the first link.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/24...de-focus-matte

Unfortunately it is difficult to effectively hold over on a duplex reticle at such a small target without a lot of practice. After starting to get into long range shooting I have since completely switched over to FFP scopes with Christmas tree reticles and won't buy a scope without at least a holdover reticle. Used a drop table in combination with holdovers to quickly hit silhouette targets between 400 and 700 yards at a long range shooting class I went to.

The alternative to holding over would be to dial up to account for distance, I'm not sure how familiar you are with this but it would probably be the most effective way to get hits at extended ranges.

Edit: Apparently Gripsafety beat me to the punch about the 1" Grid, Vortex Scopes and pretty much everything else I said.

**WWGunslinger** · April 20th, 2017, 07:52 AM

FFP scopes seem to be rare and expensive.

**jl6665** · April 20th, 2017, 08:14 AM

The Primary Arms 4-14X44mm with the ACSS reticle seems to be getting some love, First Focal Plane, and they have a model designed for the .223, the reticle seems very busy, but, if you watch some video's, ranging seems relatively simple:

http://shop.opticsplanet.com/primary...6ekaAnCN8P8HAQ

**Gripsafety** · April 20th, 2017, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by WWGunslinger

FFP scopes seem to be rare and expensive.

That's the way it is with the good stuff. If you're shooting under 400 or 500 yards with a .223, you might get away with a lower end scope, but beyond that range and/or with larger calibers you are better off stepping up a bit.

I like mil/mil scopes because the caliber and load doesn't matter as long as you have data on it. If you are always going to shoot 5.56 NATO, the BDC reticles work fine, but it gets squirrely if you change the load at all. I use a mil/mil reticle and program called Ballistic AE on my Iphone, and it is dead on vertically. Horizontal windage gets tricky, especially past 600 yds (for .308).

My suggestion is to do the grid thing that CMP700306 and I both suggested, play with it, see how it works, understand what is going on and then decide what you need. You may figure out how to be happy with what you have. You may find that a SFP scope with a quick magnifier control lever works for you. 32x is a bit much for .223 distances. Even at 1000 yds, I shoot at 10x-14X and only use higher maginfication for ranging. As aubie said, your best bet is to get and learn to use a mil/mil scope. That knowledge will transfer to any caliber and load you want.