On protecting oneself from illegal serial checks on firearms

[pex]

I've in the past advocated placing a sticker or piece of tape over a serial number of a firearm that one owns for the eventual stop by a police officer who insists on a legal or illegal Terry frisk and subsequent Terry seizure, only to apply some other supposition of law to run the serial number of one's firearm, legally or illegally, against a database, legal or illegal. (I've also advocated having a lockbox for traffic stops to place firearms in before the police reaches the vehicle to prevent illegal searches from uncovering the firearm.)

I've since thought about the sticker/piece-of-tape and realized that any officer is just going to remove the obstruction and say it wasn't there, which sort of defeats the purpose (maybe only of use during a suppression hearing, the serial has already been possibly illegally run). Also, it would be hard to prove the leftover 'adhesive age' to prove the sticker was removed.

I'd like to ask if anyone deals in adhesives to choose a more appropriate method that would conceal the serial number of a firearm without 'chang[ing], alter[ing], remov[ing], or obliterat[ing] the manufacturer's number integral to the frame or receiver' (per 18PACS6117), allowing an owner to remove the adhesive (given an appropriate amount of time or effort to do so) but cause a police office illegally attempting to remove the obstruction to, himself, 'change, alter, remove, or obliterate the manufacturer's number integral to the frame or receiver' so that he has committed a felony, preferably in one's presence.

I'd say that's a real battle plan for preventing illegal database business that the state carries on.

The statute is very juicy:

>>§ 6117. Altering or obliterating marks of identification



(a) Offense defined.--No person shall change, alter, remove, or obliterate the manufacturer's number integral to the frame or receiver of any firearm which shall have the same meaning as provided in section 6105 (relating to persons not to possess, use, manufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms).


(b) Presumption.--Possession of any firearm upon which any such mark shall have been changed, altered, removed or obliterated shall be prima facie evidence that the possessor has changed, altered, removed or obliterated the same.


(c) Penalty.--A violation of this section constitutes a felony of the second degree.


(d) Appellate review.--If a sentencing court refuses to apply this section where applicable, the Commonwealth shall have the right to appellate review of the action of the sentencing court. The appellate court shall vacate the sentence and remand the case to the sentencing court for imposition of a sentence in accordance with this section if it finds that the sentence was imposed in violation of this section.

[General Geoff]

two-part adhesive attached to a piece of plastic that, when peeled away slowly, is harmless, but if peeled away hastily triggers a two-stage magnesium-thermite reaction, whereupon the small amount of thermite eats through the serial number engraved or embossed in the metal.


Keep in mind that even if you rigged something like this up successfully, the officer may just as well claim it was obliterated before he took possession of it, and that you are held responsible. Not much you can do to counter these claims, either.


one might also just use an opaque epoxy resin to gloss over the serial number. preferably one with a non-caustic solution that you can apply to it for easy removal.

[pex]

Keep in mind that even if you rigged something like this up successfully, the officer may just as well claim it was obliterated before he took possession of it, and that you are held responsible. Not much you can do to counter these claims, either.

Well, even if you can get it so both parties have been arrested under the same offense, only one of you can describe the process and why it was undertaken. Sequester everyone you can't let find out, or get more continuances than he does.

I did forget one element; you're going to need to immediately citizen's arrest the office once he has shown that he has committed the felony in your presence. :/
Preferably the officer has a dash cam and you have a voice recorder.

The only thing I still need to ascertain is to what extent a person can effect a citizen's arrest on felonies.

[General Geoff]

No way in hell any police officer will let you arrest them. They will put you at gunpoint if you try to forcibly arrest them. And then they will call for backup. And none of the responding officers will be on your side. You will be cuffed and taken to jail, and be charged with altering/obliterating the serial number of the gun, and the officer who tripped your trap will never even be charged with a crime. No DA will indict him.

And in the end, even if you manage to get through your trial and be judged not guilty, you'll still be down one gun that has since been confiscated and destroyed, since it has no serial number.

[Guns4Fun]

Wow pex, I think you are really flirting with disaster here. Like GG said, you are not going to get support for a citizens arrest against a police officer. Plus, you’d be getting in a bunch of trouble for “hiding” the serial number. I understand your frustration with the LEO’s illegally running your serial number against their illegal data base but I honestly don’t know what the answer is other than reporting it to the chief after the incident occurs.

[gf45acp]

Pex, I don't think that I would go any farther with this other than to purchase a gun that has the S/N on th grip area, and put grips on it that cover the number. I believe that covering the S/N in any attempt to conceal it could result in charges. You may get off, but as has been said before, "how much justice can you afford".

[Swarner793]

Pex, I don't think that I would go any farther with this other than to purchase a gun that has the S/N on th grip area, and put grips on it that cover the number. I believe that covering the S/N in any attempt to conceal it could result in charges. You may get off, but as has been said before, "how much justice can you afford".

10-4, any measure undertaken to conceal, even temporarily with effort, will result in you being charged.

Great in theory, I would love to see such a scenario playout and be decided. I just would not have the courage to do it. My livelihood depends too much on being armed.

Be safe (and unidicted!).

Scott

[DemonOfTheFall]

Maybe I missed the original thread about why this would be necessary, but remind me? Is this about principle alone, i.e. preventing an illegal serial # check, or does it serve a purpose? Forgive my naivete, but all my guns were legally purchased at a store, and as far as I know haven't been used in any crimes? Seems like obscuring the serial number on a legally owned and legally purchased firearm is poking the lion for no reason. If a police officer ran a check on any of my guns, what else could he/she say but "yes, its yours, and no, it's not on our list."

[c.sander]

Maybe I missed the original thread about why this would be necessary, but remind me? Is this about principle alone, i.e. preventing an illegal serial # check, or does it serve a purpose? Forgive my naivete, but all my guns were legally purchased at a store, and as far as I know haven't been used in any crimes? Seems like obscuring the serial number on a legally owned and legally purchased firearm is poking the lion for no reason. If a police officer ran a check on any of my guns, what else could he/she say but "yes, its yours, and no, it's not on our list."

do you mind if cops stop you and demand you provide proof that your shoes are yours? what about your pants?

[nijwnfi]

Hiding a serial number only increases officer suspicion, and will make them try harder. That's reality, like it or not. Do you really want that? By doing that you're giving LEO legitimate reason to believe that pistol is stolen.