2x pics denial, but ATF says im good to go and try again

[knight0334]

It's all good except for this. A machine gun is a machine gun and cannot be a rifle, shotgun, or pistol, and therefor can never be an SBR or SBS under federal law. In fact, when you insert a DIAS into an SBR host gun the host gun itself ceases to be an SBR and becomes a machine gun. The host gun with an inserted DIAS does not even have to be registered as an SBR, though this is sometimes done for the convenience of use without. I would argue that no machine gun is ever a 6102 firearm nor any over 26" ever a 6111(f) firearm, nor is any registered sear/bolt/link/etc either. Since the ever-so-helpful legislature has not to my knowledge defined "shotgun", "rifle", "pistol", "revolver", "handgun", or "overall length" we can't know for certain. If anyone knows of the courts interpreting these terms please let me know.

Regardless, a machine gun is never an SBR.

A machine gun can be a PA defined "firearm" since all criteria hinges upon physical dimension. You cant mix up federal and state laws and definitions, you have to work with both.

PA law doesn't care about the type of action, except under 18 Pa.C.S.A. § 908, which prohibits "machine guns"(except for those lawfully owned under the NFA).

[ghost183]

Here are the steps that should have been taken:

If the original FFL/SOT holding the NFA firearm transferred it to your FFL/SOT, it would have been transferred via a Form 3 (tax free transfers between SOT's).

It should not even been shipped/transferred to your FFL/SOT until the Form 3 came back approved.

Once approved he could ship it to your FFL/SOT. Once your FFL/SOT receives it he calls you to start the Form 4 paperwork to transfer it from him to you. Your FFL/SOT should have let you examine the firearm to insure it was what you thought you were buying. If he has not, something is amiss. Do not let him tell you that you cannot handle it until it gets transferred, that is hogwash.

For you to get it transferred from your FFL/SOT, you and your FFL/SOT have to do a Form 4 to transfer it from him to you and you would have had to pay the $200 for the tax stamp.

Then you wait for the approved Form 4 to be received by your FFL/SOT. Approved Form 4's always go to the person/business who is transferring it to another individual.

Once your FFL/SOT has in his possession the approved Form 4 (with the tax stamp affixed) that Form 4 will have your name (or your trusts name) on it as the new owner of the NFA firearm. Have you seen the approved Form 4? Is it correct?

Once your FFL/SOT has that approved Form 4, you go to him and fill out a 4473 (and a SP4-113 if it is classed as a short barrel rifle, selectable or full auto doesn't matter).

He then calls the PSP PICS unit and runs the 4473 just like he would any other firearm. If you have any paperwork from the PSP regarding your being allowed to possess firearms, your FFL SHOULD NOT do the automatic check system, he needs to talk to a PICS operator and relay all that info to the PICS operator so they can do a manual check.

Something just does not sound right.

thanks Xring,,

ok, i just copy pasted and printed this, ill go over in there tomorrow and go thru this step by step with him

and to answer some questions...

yes, the firearms is here
yes, i handled it
yes the tax stamp was filed early this year, has been approved and is correct


now all this other FFL to FFl paperwork?? well.. im not an ffl so i dont know.. but i would assume for the arizona FFl to ship it here, the paperwork must have been done.. but again, i dont know the process between dealers.

ill follow up soon as i get some answers or conclusions..

[greenjohn88]

A machine gun can be a PA defined "firearm" since all criteria hinges upon physical dimension.

A machine gun under 26" would absolutely be a 6111(f) firearm, but whether it can ever be a 6102 firearm or a 6111(f) firearm over 26" OAL depends on whether or not the commonwealth allows a machine gun to be a rifle/shotgun/pistol.

You cant mix up federal and state laws and definitions, you have to work with both.

I haven't. I have very clearly worked with both separately, with the only crossover noting another users error in reference to the SBR SP 4-113 requirement.

PA law doesn't care about the type of action, except under 18 Pa.C.S.A. § 908, which prohibits "machine guns"(except for those lawfully owned under the NFA).

You say that, but they haven't and there's no evidence to support such a position.

[knight0334]

A machine gun under 26" would absolutely be a 6111(f) firearm, but whether it can ever be a 6102 firearm or a 6111(f) firearm over 26" OAL depends on whether or not the commonwealth allows a machine gun to be a rifle/shotgun/pistol.

I haven't. I have very clearly worked with both separately, with the only crossover noting another users error in reference to the SBR SP 4-113 requirement.

You say that, but they haven't and there's no evidence to support such a position.

A machine gun under 26" would be a PA 6102 firearm. Pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun under the dimensions prescribed by PA law is a 6102 firearm regardless of action(except antique firearms when not carried concealed). A "pistol", "revolver", "rifle", "shotgun" under PA law is not bound to the definitions of federal law, where a "machine gun" is a firearm type of its own not regulated by dimensions.

A Glock 18 would certainly require a PA proper transfer(on top of the NFA), and a LTCF to carry concealed. So would a Beretta 93R, a MAC10, etc, etc.

A M16 with a barrel less than 16" or an overall length under 26" would be just the same.

The only places in PA law that the statutes denote a type of action is 908 POW and the Game Laws. Physical dimensions cover any physical object, including sub-atomic particles.

Your argument is a losing one, one that could get people put in prison.

[Gunlawyer001/Moderator]

It's all good except for this. A machine gun is a machine gun and cannot be a rifle, shotgun, or pistol, and therefor can never be an SBR or SBS under federal law. In fact, when you insert a DIAS into an SBR host gun the host gun itself ceases to be an SBR and becomes a machine gun. The host gun with an inserted DIAS does not even have to be registered as an SBR, though this is sometimes done for the convenience of use without. I would argue that no machine gun is ever a 6102 firearm nor any over 26" ever a 6111(f) firearm, nor is any registered sear/bolt/link/etc either. Since the ever-so-helpful legislature has not to my knowledge defined "shotgun", "rifle", "pistol", "revolver", "handgun", or "overall length" we can't know for certain. If anyone knows of the courts interpreting these terms please let me know.

Regardless, a machine gun is never an SBR.

A machine gun under 26" would absolutely be a 6111(f) firearm, but whether it can ever be a 6102 firearm or a 6111(f) firearm over 26" OAL depends on whether or not the commonwealth allows a machine gun to be a rifle/shotgun/pistol.

I haven't. I have very clearly worked with both separately, with the only crossover noting another users error in reference to the SBR SP 4-113 requirement.

You say that, but they haven't and there's no evidence to support such a position.

Any gun under 26" or with a barrel under 16" (18" for shotguns) is a 6102 "firearm".

“Firearm.” Any pistol or revolver with a barrel length less than 15 inches, any shotgun with a barrel length less than 18 inches or any rifle with a barrel length less than 16 inches, or any pistol, revolver, rifle or shotgun with an overall length of less than 26 inches. The barrel length of a firearm shall be determined by measuring from the muzzle of the barrel to the face of the closed action, bolt or cylinder, whichever is applicable.



Anything that goes "bang" and spits out a projectile, regardless of length or type of powder or ignition, is a 6105 "firearm".

(i) Firearm.--As used in this section only, the term “firearm” shall include any weapons which are designed to or may readily be converted to expel any projectile by the action of an explosive or the frame or receiver of any such weapon.


Here's the section on transfers of "firearms"; notice that this section also expands the definition of "firearm", and then narrows it in very specific ways:

(c) Duty of other persons.--Any person who is not a licensed importer, manufacturer or dealer and who desires to sell or transfer a firearm to another unlicensed person shall do so only upon the place of business of a licensed importer, manufacturer, dealer or county sheriff's office, the latter of whom shall follow the procedure set forth in this section as if he were the seller of the firearm. The provisions of this section shall not apply to transfers between spouses or to transfers between a parent and child or to transfers between grandparent and grandchild.

(d) Defense.--Compliance with the provisions of this section shall be a defense to any criminal complaint under the laws of this Commonwealth or other claim or cause of action under this chapter arising from the sale or transfer of any firearm.

(e) Nonapplicability of section.--This section shall not apply to the following:
(1) Any firearm manufactured on or before 1898.
(2) Any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock or percussion cap type of ignition system.
(3) Any replica of any firearm described in paragraph (1) if the replica:
(i) is not designed or redesigned to use rimfire or conventional center fire fixed ammunition; or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional center fire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

(f) Application of section.--
(1) For the purposes of this section only, except as provided by paragraph (2), “firearm” shall mean any weapon which is designed to or may readily be converted to expel any projectile by the action of an explosive or the frame or receiver of any such weapon.
(2) The provisions contained in subsections (a) and (c) shall only apply to pistols or revolvers with a barrel length of less than 15 inches, any shotgun with a barrel length of less than 18 inches, any rifle with a barrel length of less than 16 inches or any firearm with an overall length of less than 26 inches.
(3) The provisions contained in subsection (a) shall not apply to any law enforcement officer whose current identification as a law enforcement officer shall be construed as a valid license to carry a firearm or any person who possesses a valid license to carry a firearm under section 6109 (relating to licenses).
(4)(i) The provisions of subsection (a) shall not apply to any person who presents to the seller or transferor a written statement issued by the official described in subparagraph (iii) during the ten-day period ending on the date of the most recent proposal of such transfer or sale by the transferee or purchaser stating that the transferee or purchaser requires access to a firearm because of a threat to the life of the transferee or purchaser or any member of the household of that transferee or purchaser.
(ii) The issuing official shall notify the applicant's local police authority that such a statement has been issued. In counties of the first class the chief of police shall notify the police station or substation closest to the applicant's residence.
(iii) The statement issued under subparagraph (ii) shall be issued by the district attorney, or his designee, of the county of residence if the transferee or purchaser resides in a municipality where there is no chief of police. Otherwise, the statement shall be issued by the chief of police in the municipality in which the purchaser or transferee resides.

I don't see any blanket exemption in PA law for NFA-registered guns. A MAC-10 is a "firearm" for all UFA purposes. An M-16 with a 20" barrel is a "firearm" for some purposes, but not others. A hand grenade is not a UFA "firearm", but it is a 908 "offensive weapon", so it doesn't matter because you can't have one here anyway (without an SOT or LEO or military exemption). A silencer is not a UFA "firearm", but it's covered by 908 and requires NFA registration, where it is a firearm.

A machinegun can be an SBR, but the MG designation trumps the SBR designation, just like it trumps the AOW (a MAC with a front grip but no stock, for example) and even DD; an automatic cannon is registered as an MG, but ATF notes the DD aspect as well in their records. Just because ATF only lists the highest level doesn't nullify the lower levels; one example is an HK-MP5SD, where the integral suppressor has to be registered separately from the MG into which it's built.

If you have a state which bans MG's but not SBR's, you won't get approval for an M4 with 14" barrel. The same would be true in a hypothetical state which bans SBR's but not MG's, unless they exempted NFA firearms specifically.

I'd be very careful about publicly using the words "all" or "never" when talking about the Machiavellian world of gun laws. Be sure of your facts before muddying the waters. We're pretty proud of our reputation here for solid legal statements.

[ghost183]

ok, well.. it isnt me, its something surrounding the firearms transfer history..

but is there a PA law that bars this weapon from being owned in PA? FFL is checking into this as well.. he specifically asked the call center rep why and referenced the atf replies that i was good to go, and the agent wasnt able to answer why i was being denied transfer, only to say this weapon can not be transferred, so were assuming something is wrong with the paper trail of this weapon?!?!?!

its a transferable select fire HK51, was previous owned by a private individual in the state of AZ, i bought the gun, he transferred to his FFL, his ffl transferred and sent it to mine, i havent confirmed the papertrail, and now in my local ffls name, and heres where the issue arises.. it cant be transferred to mine.

i got denied transfer twice already, after the second time.. i went and bought an AR lower from a local GS. all ok, is there something surrounding this gun that it cant be transferred in PA?? ive searched and didnt find anything

im getting mixed results in researching this, is it classified as a S/F pistol? S/F SBR?

my head hurts

[knight0334]

ok, well.. it isnt me, its something surrounding the firearms transfer history..

but is there a PA law that bars this weapon from being owned in PA? FFL is checking into this as well.. he specifically asked the call center rep why and referenced the atf replies that i was good to go, and the agent wasnt able to answer why i was being denied transfer, only to say this weapon can not be transferred, so were assuming something is wrong with the paper trail of this weapon?!?!?!

its a transferable select fire HK51, was previous owned by a private individual in the state of AZ, i bought the gun, he transferred to his FFL, his ffl transferred and sent it to mine, i havent confirmed the papertrail, and now in my local ffls name, and heres where the issue arises.. it cant be transferred to mine.

i got denied transfer twice already, after the second time.. i went and bought an AR lower from a local GS. all ok, is there something surrounding this gun that it cant be transferred in PA?? ive searched and didnt find anything

im getting mixed results in researching this, is it classified as a S/F pistol? S/F SBR?

my head hurts

The PICS operator does not know what kind of firearm is being transferred - AT ALL. So it wasn't the type of firearm holding things up for you.

The only info that is transferred during the instant background check is about the dealer and the buyer.

[GunLawyer001]

ok, well.. it isnt me, its something surrounding the firearms transfer history..

but is there a PA law that bars this weapon from being owned in PA? FFL is checking into this as well.. he specifically asked the call center rep why and referenced the atf replies that i was good to go, and the agent wasnt able to answer why i was being denied transfer, only to say this weapon can not be transferred, so were assuming something is wrong with the paper trail of this weapon?!?!?!

its a transferable select fire HK51, was previous owned by a private individual in the state of AZ, i bought the gun, he transferred to his FFL, his ffl transferred and sent it to mine, i havent confirmed the papertrail, and now in my local ffls name, and heres where the issue arises.. it cant be transferred to mine.

i got denied transfer twice already, after the second time.. i went and bought an AR lower from a local GS. all ok, is there something surrounding this gun that it cant be transferred in PA?? ive searched and didnt find anything

im getting mixed results in researching this, is it classified as a S/F pistol? S/F SBR?

my head hurts

Did you move since the Form 4 was submitted?

Is the spelling of your name correct, on the Form 4 and when the FFL sends it in?

PA law allows ALL NFA firearms, except for "bombs". Other DD's are OK. Machineguns are OK. Everything except bombs; read 18 PaCSA 908.

[ghost183]

Just an update;

My FFL, through calls, Faxes, or whatever, has come to the conclusion that there is something wrong in the transfer process, according to him, it has not been transferred to him, or maybe to the other dealer, license number? Name? State? Recent transfer history indicates 1 transfer where there should be 2.. i didnt even know you can look up a transfer history..

I dont know, and at this point, he cant give me a definitive answer

So i wait

Again...

Im losing faith here

Anyone want to buy an S/F H&K51?!? Lol

[coppery]

ive been denied a few times in the past, no biggie, all caused to errors in spelling, SS# address or something stupid, cause the dealer who made the call or put into the system couldnt read my chicken scratch

all checked out on second attempt after seeing the errors, same day or next day, but this is repetitive, and ive triple checked everything.. all is correct

what can cause this? what do i do now.? if red flags arent up already, im worried if i get denied again, someone is going to visit my house?!?!

Write better...

Have someone else write for you...

If the reason that you got denied this time around is for the quoted reason, than what more can be said other than making sure the monkey inputting the information to the ATF and PICS triple checks the info.