2x pics denial, but ATF says im good to go and try again

[PA-Joe]

You should have been able to take the PSP Letter to the dealer and show them. Then when they run the next pics they can read them the letter.

[ghost183]

You should have been able to take the PSP Letter to the dealer and show them. Then when they run the next pics they can read them the letter.

i dont think its that easy, i did have the letter with me cause it has a reference number and also referenced the denial, and not to mention the letter itself instructed me to bring it with me and resubmit, but i dont think that would make a difference, besides, even of he did read it, does that prove to the person on the other end that i do in fact have that letter?

dealer: submittal
atf,: denied
dealer: uumm excuse me, he has a letter from the atf that states etc etc..
atf: yah, and? my computer says no, send in a challange, have a nice day
dealer, but but but...


im thinkin maybe it has something to do with the NFA firearm im trying to buy, i have a friend checking into the rifle for me, in the meantime, im going to go buy a $200 hipoint handgun this weekend, this is the only way im going to know for sure, PSP says im good so i dont have to worry about them showing up asking me why, and even if they did, i have the 2 letters from the ATF saying i could..

[Xringshooter]

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, You say it's an NFA firearm, has the seller submitted the Form 4 to the BATFE to have it transferred to your FFL? Has your FFL submitted the Form 4 to transfer it to you? Have you received the approved Form 4 with the tax stamp on it yet? You don't fill out a 4473 or the SP4-113 nor does the FFL who is handling the transfer do a call in until you have an approved Form 4. Only after you have an approved Form 4, THEN you do a 4473 and the SP4-113.

In PA a private sale of an NFA firearm cannot go directly from one private party to another (BATFE says it can be done directly unless it conflicts with any state laws, and PA (6111 (c) and (f) basically says it has to go through a FFL due to the size). In this case the NFA firearm must go from the seller to a FFL/SOT via a Form 4. Then the NFA firearm goes from the FFL/SOT to the buyer via a Form 4.

Oh, and if the dealer calls the PICS and talks to an operator and tells that person he has a UPIN or a reversal letter with reference, they WILL take that information and input into the system, they will not just out of hand reject what the FFL is telling them. I have had to do this several times and everything went fine and I got an approval number right over the phone.

[ghost183]

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, You say it's an NFA firearm, has the seller submitted the Form 4 to the BATFE to have it transferred to your FFL? Has your FFL submitted the Form 4 to transfer it to you? Have you received the approved Form 4 with the tax stamp on it yet? You don't fill out a 4473 or the SP4-113 nor does the FFL who is handling the transfer do a call in until you have an approved Form 4. Only after you have an approved Form 4, THEN you do a 4473 and the SP4-113.

In PA a private sale of an NFA firearm cannot go directly from one private party to another (BATFE says it can be done directly unless it conflicts with any state laws, and PA (6111 (c) and (f) basically says it has to go through a FFL due to the size). In this case the NFA firearm must go from the seller to a FFL/SOT via a Form 4. Then the NFA firearm goes from the FFL/SOT to the buyer via a Form 4.

Oh, and if the dealer calls the PICS and talks to an operator and tells that person he has a UPIN or a reversal letter with reference, they WILL take that information and input into the system, they will not just out of hand reject what the FFL is telling them. I have had to do this several times and everything went fine and I got an approval number right over the phone.

all of the above have been done already, started in February, paid for weapon, NFA shipped and transfered from an arizona SOT to my local SOT, stamp came back while i was on vacation in september, the weapon is bought and paid for and currebtly in my SOT's name, but for some reason cant be transferred to mine..

everyone has mentioned to have the dealer relay the letter details to the call center rep.. im headed back to him later today and try, we'll see what happens..

wish me luck

[Bang]

Instead of an SOT, try an SAT. Or a TREE.

[ghost183]

well...
im good to go , bought an Anderson AR lower FOR $135?!?!?!?! that i dont need, fu**ing crook!! cheapest thing he had that required a pics..

anyway.. atleast my mnd is at ease now.. so apprently this deinial BS is surrounding the weapon im assuming.. i already told my FFL and he's getting in contact with the original shipper/FFL? i dont know.. trying to track down and see if something is wrong with the paperwork

what could be wrong here? cause im thinking if it was already transferred from owner, to FFL, then FFL to FFL, why cant it be transferred to me?

weapon itself? according to the original owner, its a REGISTERED, transferable select fire HK51, all the paperwork was submitted with that serial number and came back approved, albiet 7 months later.. but whos counting!!

theres an identical weapon on GB now, also a registered transferable HK51.. so any ideas?

[STBear]

Have you seen the weapon at your FFL?

[TheGhost27]

i did.. included ALL and denial information, and in their reply they stated nothing was wrong and for me to go back and resubmit, TWICE, same letters twice, PSP says im good to go.. nothing wrong and to follow up with the feds, feds say everything is good..


i dont have a common name, although there are roughly 150 poeple ( that i know of) in the US with my last name, my first is also common but unique in its spelling and my SS? address? drivers license number?..

I have not read the entire thread, so sorry if I'm repeating a suggestion. After you received your reversal letter from PSP, did you take the letter with you on the next trip to purchase a gun? I work at a gunshop and have had customers deal with this as well. If you get denied again, it is good to have the reversal on you so PSP PICS can be called and the situation is straightened out. It's also good in the event the police show up since you were previously denied; I've seen it happen. Another option is getting a Unique Personal Identification Number (PIN).

[Xringshooter]

Here are the steps that should have been taken:

If the original FFL/SOT holding the NFA firearm transferred it to your FFL/SOT, it would have been transferred via a Form 3 (tax free transfers between SOT's).

It should not even been shipped/transferred to your FFL/SOT until the Form 3 came back approved.

Once approved he could ship it to your FFL/SOT. Once your FFL/SOT receives it he calls you to start the Form 4 paperwork to transfer it from him to you. Your FFL/SOT should have let you examine the firearm to insure it was what you thought you were buying. If he has not, something is amiss. Do not let him tell you that you cannot handle it until it gets transferred, that is hogwash.

For you to get it transferred from your FFL/SOT, you and your FFL/SOT have to do a Form 4 to transfer it from him to you and you would have had to pay the $200 for the tax stamp.

Then you wait for the approved Form 4 to be received by your FFL/SOT. Approved Form 4's always go to the person/business who is transferring it to another individual.

Once your FFL/SOT has in his possession the approved Form 4 (with the tax stamp affixed) that Form 4 will have your name (or your trusts name) on it as the new owner of the NFA firearm. Have you seen the approved Form 4? Is it correct?

Once your FFL/SOT has that approved Form 4, you go to him and fill out a 4473 (and a SP4-113 if it is classed as a short barrel rifle, selectable or full auto doesn't matter).

He then calls the PSP PICS unit and runs the 4473 just like he would any other firearm. If you have any paperwork from the PSP regarding your being allowed to possess firearms, your FFL SHOULD NOT do the automatic check system, he needs to talk to a PICS operator and relay all that info to the PICS operator so they can do a manual check.

Something just does not sound right.

[greenjohn88]

Once your FFL/SOT has that approved Form 4, you go to him and fill out a 4473 (and a SP4-113 if it is classed as a short barrel rifle, selectable or full auto doesn't matter)

It's all good except for this. A machine gun is a machine gun and cannot be a rifle, shotgun, or pistol, and therefor can never be an SBR or SBS under federal law. In fact, when you insert a DIAS into an SBR host gun the host gun itself ceases to be an SBR and becomes a machine gun. The host gun with an inserted DIAS does not even have to be registered as an SBR, though this is sometimes done for the convenience of use without. I would argue that no machine gun is ever a 6102 firearm nor any over 26" ever a 6111(f) firearm, nor is any registered sear/bolt/link/etc either. Since the ever-so-helpful legislature has not to my knowledge defined "shotgun", "rifle", "pistol", "revolver", "handgun", or "overall length" we can't know for certain. If anyone knows of the courts interpreting these terms please let me know.

Regardless, a machine gun is never an SBR.

The provisions contained in subsections (a) and (c) shall only apply to pistols or revolvers with a barrel length of less than 15 inches, any shotgun with a barrel length of less than 18 inches, any rifle with a barrel length of less than 16 inches or any firearm with an overall length of less than 26 inches.