Tactical Response Training ND at Sacramento, CA facility

[sgreen10]

I'm just spitballing here. I'm not knowledgeable enough to know which guns are at risk of discharge from drop, but in your scenario, lets assume you drop your firearm and it goes off while Officer's are pointing their guns at you issuing commands. What reaction do you anticipate might follow? What if your gun discharges and strikes a cop? I'm just saying that a slow deliberate placing of the gun on the ground isn't necessarily a bad idea. YMMV

I guess it's a damn good thing that for quite some time all guns are required to have drop safeties that meet a pretty strict standard.

[ExFlyinguy]

I guess it's a damn good thing that for quite some time all guns are required to have drop safeties that meet a pretty strict standard.

What do you suppose caused the negligent discharge in question?

[sgreen10]

What do you suppose caused the negligent discharge in question?

the instructor stomping his foot on the gun and then dragging the gun on the ground. So more I'm not a betting man but I would put money on something then ended up in the trigger guard and while the gun was dragged across the ground the trigger was pulled

over

the gun went off from being dropped but decided to wait a few moments to give the instructor time to put his foot on it and drag it on the ground.

[ExFlyinguy]

the instructor stomping his foot on the gun and then dragging the gun on the ground. So more I'm not a betting man but I would put money on something then ended up in the trigger guard and while the gun was dragged across the ground the trigger was pulled

over

the gun went off from being dropped but decided to wait a few moments to give the instructor time to put his foot on it and drag it on the ground.

My guess as well.

To be honest I'm glad it came up as I've never given it any thought. I'm not saying that I'm right and that he is wrong, I just happen to disagree with Yeager's reasoning for teaching students to drop their guns. I think there is little value to be gained from it. On the other hand I think folks(including me) tend to avoid dropping their empty magazines during reloading exercises which could be a bad habit.

[wanneroo]

Instructors frequently want to introduce, 'shock value,' into their training. I guess his plan backfired.

I came up with a word years ago, entertraining. There is competition out there so some of these instructors or companies try to come up with showy new fangled stuff but sometimes the good idea machine spins out of control and you end up with goofy stuff going on that has no practical application to reality. As a quick example there is someone in my industry who teaches filling out a page of math to accomplish something you do in half a second with one movement of your arms. It makes this guy look like an expert wizard with all this math going on but it's completely useless in the real world and he produces terrible students.

Yes from an instructors perspective you want people to have a good time but everything you do needs to be practical and useful in reality.

[wanneroo]

My guess as well.

To be honest I'm glad it came up as I've never given it any thought. I'm not saying that I'm right and that he is wrong, I just happen to disagree with Yeager's reasoning for teaching students to drop their guns. I think there is little value to be gained from it. On the other hand I think folks(including me) tend to avoid dropping their empty magazines during reloading exercises which could be a bad habit.

Yes this whole magazine retention issue that people push is almost like religious dogma that cannot be questioned. Certainly in a battlefield environment one should retain their magazines so they can be refilled at some point and the enemy does not pick them up for their own use. In a defensive shooting in the civilian world it's completely useless. That's a one off situation, so your empty magazine is useless and wasting seconds trying to retain it could get you killed. I see this in IDPA competition, one they want you retain a loaded mag, if dropped stop and pick it up or on some stages retain an empty magazine. All thinking that would get you killed because I find as an instructor when people do things a certain way over and over, when the SHTF that's exactly what they will do. I'm guessing any civilian shooting that happens from the first shot is settled within 15 seconds, if even that. Fiddlefarting with magazines, especially empty ones is burning tons of time and taking your eyes off the ball.

[Grey Bearded One]

I have many, many tools. Most are scratched, scuffed and nicked from being used. Many get dropped while being used. However, I would not intentionally throw a drill or torque wrench on the ground and kick it around.

Far too many of these high speed/low drag instructors seem to be legends in their own minds.

[sgreen10]

My guess as well.

To be honest I'm glad it came up as I've never given it any thought. I'm not saying that I'm right and that he is wrong, I just happen to disagree with Yeager's reasoning for teaching students to drop their guns. I think there is little value to be gained from it. On the other hand I think folks(including me) tend to avoid dropping their empty magazines during reloading exercises which could be a bad habit.

I'm not saying i agree with his reasoning, i just happen to understand what he is trying to say. but there are way better ways to teach people that guns will not stay pretty for ever.

but again someone might be showing up to his class with a few month old SAI Glock 19 that cost them a few thousand or even a 1911 that cost them over $1,000 why would anyone intentionally scratch up that gun when it doesn't have to happen, and at the same time the instructor is doing the same thing with some random handgun that he has probably had for years and dropped hundreds of times already so doing so again isnt going to hurt the value.

[TonyF]

If the object of the exercise was to condition students to drop their handguns if / when told to by police, then that is a rather ridiculous premise. My initial take was that it was to condition students not to be concerned about maintaining a nice finish on their fighting handgun / gear and in that I would agree except to say a strong verbal emphasis not to worry about getting your handgun (or other gear) scratched should suffice.

In fact I once had a student who didn't want to drop their brand new magazines onto the deck so I had to place a piece of cardboard in front of him so his mags wouldn't hit the ground. Student was new to training as was his pistol and actually I don't think it's unusual to have an initial inhibition about roughing up your gear until you get the mindset issue ingrained. Something collectible? Yes. Obsessing over a weapon to be used for self defense? No.

In the days of sword fighting would you be apprehensive about engaging a threat because your blade might get scratched or dulled?

[Gunsnwater]

I'm just spitballing here. I'm not knowledgeable enough to know which guns are at risk of discharge from drop, but in your scenario, lets assume you drop your firearm and it goes off while Officer's are pointing their guns at you issuing commands. What reaction do you anticipate might follow? What if your gun discharges and strikes a cop? I'm just saying that a slow deliberate placing of the gun on the ground isn't necessarily a bad idea. YMMV

You are correct. Consider this, sensitive primers do happen. They have been known to go off in the box when dropped. Its part of the reasons why you never point a loaded gun at anything you don't want to destroy. People don't talk about it much. Maybe we should.