ATF Rule 41F finalized--CLEO signoff removed, everyone on trust must get BG check

[phillyd2]

Last Form1 I filed(July 2015), it was not required to fill out form 5330.20(or Certification of Compliance) any more. is that what its talking about?

Yes, I think so. Either way, its what I'm talking about

[esh21167]

Understood. I was a bit off track with my line of thinking. We can get back on topic now. I'll try not to derail again.

Ok that is a different scenario. I know this is getting off track a bit and I'm not trying to be argumentative but I like to keep things honest and not let urban myth perpetuate. I'll try and keep this brief & on point.

Regardless of what the transfer price is, PA has chosen to be what they call a Point of Contact (POC) State where they manage/conduct the background checks beyond NICS. The PSP charges $2 to the Dealer for each background check done. Some states simply use NICS which is free of charge.

You don't honestly expect a dealer to transfer a firearm to you from a competitor for $2 that they then have to give to the PSP do you?

Transfer fees are no different than retail mark ups. A dealer has to stay competitive to stay in business and the internet dealers have a very large customer market. So the local shop where you choose to have the transfer has a choice to make. Some make transfer fees high enough to defeat the break you are getting buy shopping online, some will refuse it outright. Either way they may say they charge $25+ PICS($2.00 in this case) or they may say they charge $25, and then remit $2 and only profit $23. When you buy a firearm via a transfer from another dealer you are most likely doing so sales tax free (despite the "USE TAX" requirement that you're supposed to self report).

[esh21167]

On the issue of fingerprints and photos, I was reading an analysis by John Pierce (of OCDO) and he was picking up something that if you've done fingerprints and photos and bought anything with your trust, you don't need to send in another set for subsequent purchases for 24 months thereafter if there are no other changes to the trust. True or not?

I saw similar on Josh Prince's website. If you have that on record because you filed within the last 24 months, and nothing has changed, you don't have to submit again. When the 24 month period expires, you would have to submit with a new application. http://blog.princelaw.com/2016/01/05...on-to-atf-41p/

I'd be curious if a trust was approved prior to 41P, if that approval would count as having 'documentation', and the 24 months would be from that date. I doubt it though.

[NShortino]

Maybe this was addressed already and I missed it, but what happens if people are added to a trust after the NFA transfer? If I have a trust set up with 2 people, we'd both have to send in fingerprints/pictures with the application? But what if I add a third person after the transfer is complete?

[Xringshooter]

As for the PICS checks. I was at a meeting a few months back with the ATF and the PSP Firearms Unit and I specifically asked about the checks. The PSP folks told me that you do not need a PICS check for a suppressor, but you do need it for a SBR or a SBS and that is actually shown on the SP4-113. The never said anything about a MG and the ATF agreed with them on the BGC's.

I did a suppressor transfer yesterday and called the Firearms Unit (not the PICS operators) and asked, just to make sure, if I needed to do the BGC for the suppressor. They told me no, just fill out a 4473 and check block 22 and file it in whatever bound book I use for NFA items.

The adding of people to the trust is a part that wasn't addressed IIRC so we'll have to wait and see. In fact we'll have to wait and see how the new forms look, how we process them, how they process them, etc, etc. As FFL's I'm sure we will be inundated with communications from the BATFE as they figure out how to implement this.

[phillyd2]

The PSP folks told me that you do not need a PICS check for a suppressor, but you do need it for a SBR or a SBS and that is actually shown on the SP4-113.

How that work for a AR lower you bought FTF, maybe as part of a rifle, that you then turn into a SBR?

[ExFlyinguy]

As for the PICS checks. I was at a meeting a few months back with the ATF and the PSP Firearms Unit and I specifically asked about the checks. The PSP folks told me that you do not need a PICS check for a suppressor, but you do need it for a SBR or a SBS and that is actually shown on the SP4-113. The never said anything about a MG and the ATF agreed with them on the BGC's.

I did a suppressor transfer yesterday and called the Firearms Unit (not the PICS operators) and asked, just to make sure, if I needed to do the BGC for the suppressor. They told me no, just fill out a 4473 and check block 22 and file it in whatever bound book I use for NFA items.

The adding of people to the trust is a part that wasn't addressed IIRC so we'll have to wait and see. In fact we'll have to wait and see how the new forms look, how we process them, how they process them, etc, etc. As FFL's I'm sure we will be inundated with communications from the BATFE as they figure out how to implement this.

X-ring, the reason I brought the PICS check up for a silencer is because of the instructions on page# 6 of the 4473 which I'll include here:

EXCEPTIONS TO NICS CHECK: A NICS check is not required if the transfer qualifies for any ~ generally these include ~ b.) Transfers of National Firearms Act weapons approved by ATF ~

Now it didn't rub me the wrong way paying the PICS fee for my NFA goodies but I take that instruction to include the other NFA goodies as well?

[GunLawyer001]

Link to a post in a thread discussing this back in 2013, with predictions from various folks about what would happen. (Hint: I was right, others were not-so-right. Neener-neener.)

http://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.ph...32#post2296832

[esh21167]

...The PSP folks told me that you do not need a PICS check for a suppressor, but you do need it for a SBR or a SBS and that is actually shown on the SP4-113...

How that work for a AR lower you bought FTF, maybe as part of a rifle, that you then turn into a SBR?

He said no PICS for a suppressor, but PICS needed for an SBR. So you need to file to make an SBR on that 'undocumented' lower. If you want to keep that lower 'unregistered' don't SBR it.