LEOSA Qualification

[Greywolf]

Doesn't the whole "national parks fall under the state they live in thing for gun reasons" now cover this, or did your trip predate that?

I don't think the Constitution is a national park. It's still on the rolls as a U.S. Navy ship, which means going aboard is entering a military enclave.

[Greywolf]

The LEOSA for you retired coppers:

18 U.S. Code § 926C - Carrying of concealed firearms by qualified retired law enforcement officers

(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of the law of any State or any political subdivision thereof, an individual who is a qualified retired law enforcement officer and who is carrying the identification required by subsection (d) may carry a concealed firearm that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, subject to subsection (b).

NOTE: So far, we are at "a concealed firearm," with no limitations as to type or model.

(b) This section shall not be construed to supersede or limit the laws of any State that—

(1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property; or
(2) prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms on any State or local government property, installation, building, base, or park.

(c) As used in this section, the term “qualified retired law enforcement officer” means an individual who—

(1) separated from service in good standing from service with a public agency as a law enforcement officer;
(2) before such separation, was authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of, or the incarceration of any person for, any violation of law, and had statutory powers of arrest or apprehension under section 807(b) of title 10, United States Code (article 7(b) of the Uniform Code of Military Justice);
(3)

(A) before such separation, served as a law enforcement officer for an aggregate of 10 years or more; or
(B) separated from service with such agency, after completing any applicable probationary period of such service, due to a service-connected disability, as determined by such agency;

(4) during the most recent 12-month period, has met, at the expense of the individual, the standards for qualification in firearms training for active law enforcement officers, as determined by the former agency of the individual, the State in which the individual resides or, if the State has not established such standards, either a law enforcement agency within the State in which the individual resides or the standards used by a certified firearms instructor that is qualified to conduct a firearms qualification test for active duty officers within that State;

IANAL, but to me this just says you have to satisfy the agency's qualifications requirements. It doesn't say that you are limited to carrying the specific firearm with which you qualified.

(5)

(A) has not been officially found by a qualified medical professional employed by the agency to be unqualified for reasons relating to mental health and as a result of this finding will not be issued the photographic identification as described in subsection (d)(1); or
(B) has not entered into an agreement with the agency from which the individual is separating from service in which that individual acknowledges he or she is not qualified under this section for reasons relating to mental health and for those reasons will not receive or accept the photographic identification as described in subsection (d)(1);

(6) is not under the influence of alcohol or another intoxicating or hallucinatory drug or substance; and
(7) is not prohibited by Federal law from receiving a firearm.

(d) The identification required by this subsection is—

(1) a photographic identification issued by the agency from which the individual separated from service as a law enforcement officer that identifies the person as having been employed as a police officer or law enforcement officer and indicates that the individual has, not less recently than one year before the date the individual is carrying the concealed firearm, been tested or otherwise found by the agency to meet the active duty standards for qualification in firearms training as established by the agency to carry a firearm of the same type as the concealed firearm; or
(2)

(A) a photographic identification issued by the agency from which the individual separated from service as a law enforcement officer that identifies the person as having been employed as a police officer or law enforcement officer; and
(B) a certification issued by the State in which the individual resides or by a certified firearms instructor that is qualified to conduct a firearms qualification test for active duty officers within that State that indicates that the individual has, not less than 1 year before the date the individual is carrying the concealed firearm, been tested or otherwise found by the State or a certified firearms instructor that is qualified to conduct a firearms qualification test for active duty officers within that State to have met—

(I) the active duty standards for qualification in firearms training, as established by the State, to carry a firearm of the same type as the concealed firearm; or
(II) if the State has not established such standards, standards set by any law enforcement agency within that State to carry a firearm of the same type as the concealed firearm.

[NOTE: Here is where the law says "type." The operative question, then, is: Does "type" refer to action mechanism (i.e. semi-auto or revolver), or does "type" refer to make, model and caliber of firearm? IANAL, but to me "type" means "type," not "brand and model and caliber." Note that the word "type" is not defined in this section of the U.S. Code.]

(e) As used in this section—

(1) the term “firearm”—

(A) except as provided in this paragraph, has the same meaning as in section 921 of this title;
(B) includes ammunition not expressly prohibited by Federal law or subject to the provisions of the National Firearms Act; and
(C) does not include—

(i) any machinegun (as defined in section 5845 of the National Firearms Act);
(ii) any firearm silencer (as defined in section 921 of this title); and
(iii) any destructive device (as defined in section 921 of this title); and

(2) the term “service with a public agency as a law enforcement officer” includes service as a law enforcement officer of the Amtrak Police Department, service as a law enforcement officer of the Federal Reserve, or service as a law enforcement or police officer of the executive branch of the Federal Government.

[Deleted]

The LEOSA for you retired coppers:

Federal stuff is not the problem.. it's Pennsylvania's LEOSA regulations... these are what's at issue. http://www.psp.pa.gov/MPOETC/rleia/P...x#.VnIZeIYrKHs

[masakarijoe]

Wouldn't the solution for all this be to just get a LTCF, and also get qualified by your dept and have a ID, then just carry as desired?
My MPOETC card rides right next to my LTCF. I'm also fortunate to work for a department that will let me qualify with whatever as long as it's not an absurd caliber.

[Deleted]

Wouldn't the solution for all this be to just get a LTCF, and also get qualified by your dept and have a ID, then just carry as desired?
My MPOETC card rides right next to my LTCF. I'm also fortunate to work for a department that will let me qualify with whatever as long as it's not an absurd caliber.

IMO...LTCF is the way to go. Carry whatever you want most everywhere you want... then get your Utah ect.. Going LEOSA it's just a continuation of what you have now woth your PD.. you can be limited to what you may qualify with. You will be limited to what you can carry. When your eyes or knees or whatever goes bad your LEOSA certification will be lost when you can't run the MPOETC Qual course. And there are a ton of carry gums you just can't carry like Derringers that you just can't qualify with because of the way the course of fire is set up.

[Bang]

The state cannot supersede the federal LEOSA. As I said before, anything the state or sub-departments does to thwart the purpose of HR 218 AKA LEOSA is exceeding its authority and interfering with the purpose of the act. Active officers are constrained by departmental regulations with respect to where they can live, what they can carry on duty. If dept regs state the officer is on duty subject to call 24/7 and compensated for such arrangement, then yes, the department can dictate terms.

Otherwise, the officer has not forfeited or surrendered his constitutional and civil rights. The conjecture of what a lawyer will do or claim when charging the officer, supervisors, the involved entity and its supervisors is bullshit. It ranks with the warning that carrying a handgun in a quick-draw holster will be viewed as premeditation at trial.

If a department does not allow an officer to qualify with a backup gun, it is a piss-poor department indeed. Departments have unnecessarily narrowed their rules accommodating conjectures dreamed up by desk fliers. To the point they hesitate to replace the officer's Glock in need of repair with an identical Glock having a different serial number.

Question....since the department seems to be the all-powerful factor. What right does a department have in telling you what to carry under authority of a PA LTCF, said license app not even asking what you intend to carry?

[Steve in PA]

Here is the documentation I got from MPOETC in reference to when I asked if a retired officer qualifies with a semi-auto handgun, he should then be okay to carry any semi-auto he wants. There answer was no, if it's a different manufacturer, different controls, etc.

[Steve in PA]

As for PA and LEOSA, MPOETC says the retired officer has to meet the same standards as an active duty officer, which can be difficult. While MPOETC does have a COF that is shot during the academy, it is not required that a department use that exact COF. The COF they choose only has to meet the requirements;

As required by 37 Pa. Code §203.12 (3) (i) and §203.52 (b) (1) (i), the Municipal Police Officers' Education and Training Commission is hereby publishing police firearms course requirements:

The handgun course of fire for the police firearms course that all Waiver of training applicants must successfully complete with a minimum score of 75% and all police officers must successfully complete annually in order to satisfy mandatory in-service re-certification requirements will meet the following minimum standards:

A handgun course of fire must be considered a generally accepted police qualification course consisting of at least fifty (50) rounds of duty ammunition. A minimum of ten (10%) percent of the rounds must be fired at a distance of 25 yards or greater.

The course shall include stages to determine the applicant's or officers' overall proficiency; including, but not limited to marksmanship, safety, weapon operating procedures or tactical skills (i.e., use of cover, tactical reloading), with the weapon s/he will use in the performance of their duties. Requirements for distances of firing positions are: Stages no closer than one (1) yard and at least one stage of fire from the twenty-five (25) yard line or greater distance.


I change up my active COF every year to keep the guys on their toes, so they don't know what's coming next, etc. As long as I meet the standards, I'm good to go. Now, instead of any retired officers I qualify under LEOSA having to shoot the active COF, I came up with an off-duty/back up COF for my active guys that I also use to satisfy LEOSA for the retired officers. It meets the same MPOETC standards, just a different COF. Not as "difficult" so to speak.

As for the issue with a police officer and a LTCF, it's an interesting one.

In my department as in many others, an officer must qualify with a firearm before they can carry it either on or off-duty using their LE credentials. The department can limit the officers options to a list of "authorized" firearms. Not on that approved list, not qualified, you ain't carrying it.

Okay, what if the LEO has a LTCF? Can he say I'm not carrying under the provision of my LE credentials, I'm carrying under the provisions of my LTCF? The problem is, if an officer gets involved in a shooting, he's not going to be looked at as a person carrying with a LTCF, he's going to be looked at as an off-duty officer. You can't turn being a LEO on or off. He would be okay by PA law 6101(b)(1) which allows him to carry any firearm, but he could still be in violation of the restrictions of the department policy.

Can he walk out the door Monday with his LE credentials and be required to carry an "authorized" firearm, but on Tuesday walk out with his LTCF and carry whatever he wants?

[ar15jules]

No..there are enough stray dogs for all of us to shoot 6 or 7 a piece!!! I have a safe full of handguns that I will never be able to carry over my (by the time I am done) 33 year career..... department policy only allows me to carry what I qualify with and they supply the ammo. So then the magic day comes when I retire... LEOSA has the same damn rule.. qualification and you can only carry what you qualify with.

I would rather forget LEOSA.... get my LTCF... carry all my safe queens.. never have to qualify again or worry about having my ability to carry a firearm stripped away from me... go blind and still be able to carry if I want to.

So I won't be able to carry in New Jersey.... big loss.

I am still active, but have my license to carry a firearm for such purposes.

[Carson]

...

Question....since the department seems to be the all-powerful factor. What right does a department have in telling you what to carry under authority of a PA LTCF, said license app not even asking what you intend to carry?

In Philadelphia we had to turn in any LTCF before attending the Academy.