Bill would eliminate PA’s PICS system

[KML]

You are already dealing with NICS. If the NICS system goes down (like it did last Friday, BTW) you will not be able to purchase a firearm in PA. Period. GL has quite a long post in another thread about why we should keep PICS. He reasoning is pretty solid, but i dissent.

The biggest advantages to going to only NICS would still require alot of the PA firearms statute to be amended, such as getting rid of the state sale form for handguns. Also, if we were a NICS state, LTCF holders dont need BG checks, but i think that the PA law would still have to be amended to make that a go.

I am all about getting rid of PICS. My biggest reason i support NICS only has to do with PAs infamous "undetermined" status, which simply doesn't exist with NICS. Research? Feds got 3 days, then you go pick up your gun. The only con to that is that someone with some obscure charge that may make them a prohibited person gets their hands on a firearm becomes a felon.

This is correct. Pics uses the Nics system, so you are paying Pa State Police to put your info into nics to say yes or no. Why not save that money and have the dealer go right to Nics? PLUS when Nics goes down Pics goes down,with nics you are good with your CCW permit.

[GunLawyer001]

The FEDS already have the power with NICS because PICS uses it, all we are doing is giving unnecessary power to PA PSP to deny someone the right to purchase a firearm, but beyond that, if PA went to a straight NICS system, we could then attempt to have the PA LTCF be accepted as an instant NICS approval.

Question 23: No NICS check was required because the buyer has a valid permit from the State where the transfer is to take place, which qualifies as an exemption to NICS.

permanent-brady-permit-chart

This is correct. Pics uses the Nics system, so you are paying Pa State Police to put your info into nics to say yes or no. Why not save that money and have the dealer go right to Nics? PLUS when Nics goes down Pics goes down,with nics you are good with your CCW permit.

There is so much misinformation being spewed by those in favor of killing PICS, that I seriously have to wonder at their agenda.

PICS doesn't "use NICS". It's not a duplicate process. It has nothing to do with the "Record of Sale Form" or the "Record of Sale Database".

PICS looks at the same database that NICS uses, plus more. In either system, if there's no red flag, you get approved.

Where the difference lies is in what happens if there IS a flag; someone with your name has a PFA, or there's an arrest record without any disposition record. That's when judgment kicks in, and under PICS your case will be handled by employees of one of the most pro-gun states in the nation. Under NICS, it will be handled by underlings of Loretta Lynch, who hates you gun-toting rednecks and wants to see you put in your place. You have zero influence over Lynch, because her boss hates you, too, and most of his Federal court appointees hate you.

As for the Record of Sale Form, you could erase every aspect of PICS tomorrow, and state law would still require an FFL to have you complete and submit the ROS form for every firearm he sells or transfers. State law is IN ADDITION TO Federal law, they co-exist, just like you would still be prohibited even if Federal law said nothing about your state prohibitor. Hating the ROSD is not a reason to hate PICS.

If we replaced PICS with NICS and made no other statutory changes, you would NOT be "good with your CCW permit" [sic]. We use an LTCF, and state law isn't set up to bypass the background check with the current version of the LTCF.

If it comes down to handing control over Pennsylvania gun transfers to Loretta Lynch to save a couple of bucks when you buy a $500 gun, then I would direct you to your Bible, and the quote about selling your birthright for a mess of pottage.

[Orlov556]

There is so much misinformation being spewed by those in favor of killing PICS, that I seriously have to wonder at their agenda.

PICS doesn't "use NICS". It's not a duplicate process. It has nothing to do with the "Record of Sale Form" or the "Record of Sale Database".

PICS looks at the same database that NICS uses, plus more. In either system, if there's no red flag, you get approved.

Where the difference lies is in what happens if there IS a flag; someone with your name has a PFA, or there's an arrest record without any disposition record. That's when judgment kicks in, and under PICS your case will be handled by employees of one of the most pro-gun states in the nation. Under NICS, it will be handled by underlings of Loretta Lynch, who hates you gun-toting rednecks and wants to see you put in your place. You have zero influence over Lynch, because her boss hates you, too, and most of his Federal court appointees hate you.

As for the Record of Sale Form, you could erase every aspect of PICS tomorrow, and state law would still require an FFL to have you complete and submit the ROS form for every firearm he sells or transfers. State law is IN ADDITION TO Federal law, they co-exist, just like you would still be prohibited even if Federal law said nothing about your state prohibitor. Hating the ROSD is not a reason to hate PICS.

If we replaced PICS with NICS and made no other statutory changes, you would NOT be "good with your CCW permit" [sic]. We use an LTCF, and state law isn't set up to bypass the background check with the current version of the LTCF.

If it comes down to handing control over Pennsylvania gun transfers to Loretta Lynch to save a couple of bucks when you buy a $500 gun, then I would direct you to your Bible, and the quote about selling your birthright for a mess of pottage.

Correct me if I am wrong but I was reading the proposed changes and it looks like the bill also eliminates the RoS form:

(5) [A true record in triplicate shall be made of every
10firearm sold, in a book kept for the purpose, the form of
11which may be prescribed by the Pennsylvania State Police, and
12shall be personally signed by the purchaser and by the person
13effecting the sale, each in the presence of the other, and
14shall contain the information required by section 6111. The
15record shall be maintained by the licensee for a period of 20
16years.] (Reserved).

ETA: http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/...type=B&bn=0725

[ungawa]

GL,

Does PICS work when NICS is down?

I believe it does. I gave my two reasons for this - PICS runs at Christmas and NICS does not, and there were week long outages and weeks long delays in NICS during 2013 and we never saw that here.

Perhaps I have my facts wrong but I want to get to the bottom of that issue as well. I do not believe PICS needs NICS to be up to operate. And even if it does, that probably means PICS does not need a decision from NICS (thus no delays) and this point is still partially valid.

[GunLawyer001]

Correct me if I am wrong but I was reading the proposed changes and it looks like the bill also eliminates the RoS form:

(5) [A true record in triplicate shall be made of every
10firearm sold, in a book kept for the purpose, the form of
11which may be prescribed by the Pennsylvania State Police, and
12shall be personally signed by the purchaser and by the person
13effecting the sale, each in the presence of the other, and
14shall contain the information required by section 6111. The
15record shall be maintained by the licensee for a period of 20
16years.] (Reserved).

ETA: http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/...type=B&bn=0725

PICS and the ROS are different issues. You can address both of them in the same bill, but it's like "eggs and Spam", or "ham, eggs & Spam". Promoting the "kill PICS" product with the argument "because you hate the ROS, dont'cha?" is like selling "eggs & Spam" by talking about the tasty eggs.

I don't like Spam. Just sell the eggs. Or in this case, kill the ROSD by talking about how it's abused (and it is, that's for sure, by too many local Fifes). Don't try to sell NICS by talking about the evil ROSD. That's deceptive, and you're not supposed to try to fool the folks on your own side, right?

[GunLawyer001]

GL,

Does PICS work when NICS is down?

I believe it does. I gave my two reasons for this - PICS runs at Christmas and NICS does not, and there were week long outages and weeks long delays in NICS during 2013 and we never saw that here.

Perhaps I have my facts wrong but I want to get to the bottom of that issue as well. I do not believe PICS needs NICS to be up to operate. And even if it does, that probably means PICS does not need a decision from NICS (thus no delays) and this point is still partially valid.

I'm certain that PICS doesn't rely on (or even get) a decision from NICS. I honestly don't know if PICS can operate if the NICS database is down, but it can certainly query the database without any NICS operators being on duty.

If you check the PSP website, last time I checked they had stats on percentage of up time and down time, and mostly, they were up, by a healthy margin. What I've heard from some reputable dealers is that PICS, when it's down, is usually down on heavy traffic weekends. That would make sense, any system will slow and maybe stop under unusually heavy traffic, and that needs to be addressed, any law enforcement function needs to be ready for the maximum possible load, not the average. even small towns with 1-man PD's have the ability to draw-in resources from nearby departments when hit with unexpected crises (I bet that Ferguson had a hefty influx of non-local cops, for example.)

My concerns include those outages, but also concern my clients who are denied or delayed, and the cost to them of having the issues resolved. It would easily cost 3-6 times as much to resolve a NICS issue than the same PICS issue. I'd enjoy the extra billable hours, but it's not in the best interests of the thousands of Pennsylvanians whose records may be an issue in the future. You're literally making a Federal case out of something that was previously resolved with the state with a fax and a couple of phone calls.

[Orlov556]

GL,

Does PICS work when NICS is down?

I believe it does. I gave my two reasons for this - PICS runs at Christmas and NICS does not, and there were week long outages and weeks long delays in NICS during 2013 and we never saw that here.

Perhaps I have my facts wrong but I want to get to the bottom of that issue as well. I do not believe PICS needs NICS to be up to operate. And even if it does, that probably means PICS does not need a decision from NICS (thus no delays) and this point is still partially valid.

http://www.psp.pa.gov/firearms-infor...ual_Report.pdf

Check out Appendix E. PICS cannot operate if NICS is down. In 2013, NICS was down for a total of 5.09 hours. PICS (alone) was down for an additional 20.19 hours. In the grand scheme of things, this is still a 99+% operational time, but ask any dealer how they feel about PICS during Oaks on a Saturday.

[Orlov556]

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nic...rations-report

http://www.psp.pa.gov/firearms-infor...ual_Report.pdf

If you like numbers, those two pages give you a pretty good look at PICS vs NICS in 2013, one hell of a year for BG checks.

To sum it up, NICS approved 99% of their checks within 3 days, while PA approved 90% of their checks within 15 days.

What this tells me is either:

1) PA has 10 times as many prohibited persons trying to buy guns as the rest of the nation

2) There is something seriously wrong with the way PICS issues decisions regarding background checks.

I haven't checked other years beyond 2013.

[streaker69]

Regardless of the uptime of the system issue, why would you ever want to rely completely upon the Feds and having to appeal any decision to them? GL has explained it, very clearly how badly it can be trying to get an appealed decision from the feds. We currently have a federal government that's hostile to gun owners, and I doubt it's going to get any better, why give them more ability to deny and then be forced into the federal appeal system?

[bigdawgbeav]

I'm in the PICS camp. The last thing I would want is more federal control. More power needs to come back to the states.