PA State Police sales data

[spacemanvic]

There is a negative to a total destruction of the sales database vs. some sort of restricted use. There have been a whole lot of stolen handguns that have been returned to their rightful owners because of the sales records. A whole lot of people keep crappy records or don't report their stuff stolen.

Just a thought.

So a law can be broken provided some good comes out of it?

[Statkowski]

Wasn't there some hullabaloo between the PSP and the FBI (or ATF) where some federal judge ordered the PSP to comply with the law and the PSP just shrugged?

[unclejumbo]

Wasn't there some hullabaloo between the PSP and the FBI (or ATF) where some federal judge ordered the PSP to comply with the law and the PSP just shrugged?

No, the state supreme court ruled it was legal because it's not complete, therefor not a database. Funny how government covers for government, isn't it?

[streaker69]

It would be interesting to see the stat's of firearms that are returned using the RoSdb and those that are returned via NCIC information. Also, how many firearms are checked against the RoSdb/NCIC that are turned in via the gun buyback programs and returned if reported lost/stolen.

How proactive are the police acting when it comes to recovered/found firearms, I bet it varies greatly across the state.

[Deleted]

I guess the question is, do we really need the government looking out for us yet again? I understand what you're saying, but that's actually a pretty poor excuse for violating the law. If that's the issue, let's pass a statewide law requiring citizens keep proper records and report their stuff stolen. /sarcasm

My personal feeling is, if you're a gun owner not keeping proper records of your firearms and they get stolen and recovered, I guess it's your fault if you don't get them back. The government shouldn't be in the business of keeping those kinds of records for citizens. But if they want to be, I have a shitload of serial numbers of things in my home that I'd like back if it's stolen, where do I submit them preemptively?

On one hand you have plenty of people who will be more than happy to take every one of those locate handguns who have "no owner" and toss them in the smelter...for society will be better off with hundreds of less guns each year.

On the other hand, perhaps with a search warrant or other court order, the information in the registry can be used for good but kept more secure than it is today where it is truly abused.

Just a thought.

[Deleted]

Record of Sale is registration, registration is illegal. Supreme Court Justices are no longer under the spell of Fast Eddie Rendell and he can't use those pictures now.

It's been ruled that it's not a registration... the court is not going to overturn itself on this matter any time soon.

[GunLawyer001]

It should be possible to at least minimize the misuse of the ROSD, while allowing LEO's to retain the beneficial aspects.

The harm seems to be the instant call & response availability. Despite the memos from the PSP to the locals that "it's not registration", the fact remains that cops can ask the dispatcher to "check the gun's serial number to see if it's registered to the guy I just took this from." And mostly, they confirm that yes, this gun is registered to him.

So, much like crappy home repair guys, they find that they can use a pair of pliers as a wrench. So they keep doing it. Even though that's not what that's for.

It should be possible to eliminate the casual inquiries like that. Require a written inquiry, based on (a) a weapon found at a crime scene, or (b) a gun seized or recovered and now the police seek to return it to the owner, as required by the UFA, or (c) as part of a stolen gun prosecution.

I don't think that students of history really trust any government with gun registration, and in just the last few years we've seen registries abused in various jurisdictions, by releasing the info to newspapers who then publish private info, or new laws that ban existing weapons and the police use the lists to start knocking on doors.

I don't encourage unlawful conduct, but when the govt bans guns, the govt is acting unconstitutionally. The lack of gun registration not only allows citizens to resist the unconstitutional law, it also discourages the laws from being passed in the first place, because the hoplophobes in charge don't want to enact unenforceable laws. So it would be better, all things considered, to scrub the ROSD entirely.

But if we can't kill it, we can at least hobble it, and stop the daily abuse by traffic cops who think that it's SOP to seize guns and run the SN "to make sure it's registered to you".

[TaePo]

Well, no hard feelings to steelcityk9cop but when you are in the business of law and 'order' it just seems strange to ignore order and not worry about 'loose' firearms unaccounted for. It's the nature of the beast and it is why we should always keep a wary eye on the government and their agents. It's an easy trap to fall into even accidentally.

The real danger is the insidious ways the government tries to get the population to feel differently about issues by as much as 180 degrees. Even though registration is illegal and many Americans can still recognize this, instead call it a record of sales database. In today's high tech prose, everyone understands what that is and do not see it as a registry (maybe some of the Business Intelligence folks or government intel folks still do, lol). Even though they still cannot get the object of their desire (registration and censorship et al) through, they have fudged enough to change the mind set of most free thinkers.

Imagine a world where no guns are tracked at all. Criminals will still find access to them legally or illegally and will use firearms illegally or legally. Originally, the law is all set on what you do (or are accused to have done) at any given moment in your history and whether it was legal for you to do so or not; given some reasonable standard(s) and a jury of ones peers etc. a.k.a. Due Process.

I guess we need to ask ourselves, if guns go missing, does the entropy (and I suspect by direct correlation, the liberty) of the whole system increase, decrease, or stay the same? Lacking slaves building a cache for a revolt or some other such activity, I would think that the system on whole, remains the same, despite what our imaginations might have us inventing as possible outcomes or scenarios.

Defining it as an optimization problem, we would fail. So we could prevent say 95% of criminals, mentally impaired etc. from gaining access if we spent billions every year and time wasted in line etc doing checks etc. is it worth it? While, when the other side of the equation is liberty or living in a free society, that can have only a digital answer (black and white for the old timers). Either we are free or we are not. There really is no in between.

And that is the kind of tripe (reasonable limits) the government has been peddling for quite awhile.

It's akin to wanting to divide by zero though the process is undefined and cannot be used. But if we only could, it could solve so many issues! Well, not really but you might be able to talk a neophyte into trying it, lol.

[Deleted]

Well, no hard feelings to steelcityk9cop but when you are in the business of law and 'order' it just seems strange to ignore order and not worry about 'loose' firearms unaccounted for. It's the nature of the beast and it is why we should always keep a wary eye on the government and their agents. It's an easy trap to fall into even accidentally.

The real danger is the insidious ways the government tries to get the population to feel differently about issues by as much as 180 degrees. Even though registration is illegal and many Americans can still recognize this, instead call it a record of sales database. In today's high tech prose, everyone understands what that is and do not see it as a registry (maybe some of the Business Intelligence folks or government intel folks still do, lol). Even though they still cannot get the object of their desire (registration and censorship et al) through, they have fudged enough to change the mind set of most free thinkers.

Imagine a world where no guns are tracked at all. Criminals will still find access to them legally or illegally and will use firearms illegally or legally. Originally, the law is all set on what you do (or are accused to have done) at any given moment in your history and whether it was legal for you to do so or not; given some reasonable standard(s) and a jury of ones peers etc. a.k.a. Due Process.

I guess we need to ask ourselves, if guns go missing, does the entropy (and I suspect by direct correlation, the liberty) of the whole system increase, decrease, or stay the same? Lacking slaves building a cache for a revolt or some other such activity, I would think that the system on whole, remains the same, despite what our imaginations might have us inventing as possible outcomes or scenarios.

Defining it as an optimization problem, we would fail. So we could prevent say 95% of criminals, mentally impaired etc. from gaining access if we spent billions every year and time wasted in line etc doing checks etc. is it worth it? While, when the other side of the equation is liberty or living in a free society, that can have only a digital answer (black and white for the old timers). Either we are free or we are not. There really is no in between.

And that is the kind of tripe (reasonable limits) the government has been peddling for quite awhile.

It's akin to wanting to divide by zero though the process is undefined and cannot be used. But if we only could, it could solve so many issues! Well, not really but you might be able to talk a neophyte into trying it, lol.

I totally understand your stance and can appreciate where you are coming from. I have mentioned this before on the forums.. I have a personal stake in the sales record. I sold a gun about 11 years ago and according to the sales database.. still have it!!!

If it were scrapped tomorrow I could care less...for those who understand what it is and what it can and more importantly CAN NOT do, it's only a tool that can do some good. If it's a super important case where we HAVE to know who the owner is we can give the ATF Trace a whirl. Unfortunately it's not being used correctly and the only thing you can do to correct that on a scale were talking about is to take it away.

[JenniferG]

Rendell had pictures of those Justices in compromising positions. No one with a functioning brain wouldn't call ROS registration. I read the case from top to bottom and it was like Supreme Court Justices brain function suddenly started a gymnastics class in order to justify registration even though the words and intent are clearly written and understood by intelligent or mildly intelligent or even the mildly retarded. It's so amazing it should be in the Guinness Book of Records as the most blatant purposeful misinterpretation of a law.