Shooting steel in an AR15

[arjohnson]

I've shot lots of steel case ammo through my AR's with no problem, only time I ever had an issue was with a Rock River barrel, had some stick in the chamber, part of the reason I stick with quality barrels. My Colts, Spikes, LMT's and BCM's eat that shit like candy.

If steel gives you issues it's most likely an out of speck chamber.

[wanneroo]

Once you have to beat a case out with a cleaning rod and a rock, you'll never, ever trust steel case ammo for anything more than range use again.

Although cleaning the rifle once in a while may negate the need for such brutality.

Wait till you get a squib with a cheap ass russian bullet wedged in your barrel. Both times primer goes pop with enough force to wedge the bullet in the barrel, powder doesn't ignite, powder goes everywhere, big mess.

[Hodgie]

It sure looked to me like the barrels using steel cased ammo were completely fucked after the 10k round test. Did not even take 10k rounds, 5k or 6k really. Quite a difference in accuracy and bore wear vs the brass cased ammo. Granted their ROF was fairly quick vs what the average owner would put it through. Well and they are Bushmasters, but it was similar with the Spikes and steel cased.

These extreme tests dont prove much too me it's like when a guy fills his Glock with a jar of raspberry preserves and then fires it for his torture test whats the point? Neither test proves real world conditions to me. How many people you know drop 1k rounds through their AR brass or steel within 30 minutes of non stop shooting heating that barrel up to ungodly temperatures that it was never meant to run constantly at right there?

I cant say for sure but if I dont remember there being any gauging or measuring of the throat and lead of the chamber before starting these tests if the specs were poor or off and they can come like that all brand new then expect poor performance and longevity.

All I can say is that after thousands of rounds of steel cased ammunition through my personal firearms and at least 8 or 9k through my G19 alone within 3 years the barrel, ejector, extractor are A-O-Kay. I am not saying that you wont ever have to replace your barrel sooner or later or maybe break an ejector on a lower end rifle but the cost of shooting steal cased ammo vs brass epically at the high far outweighs having to possibly one day replace a few parts for the average every day shooter.

[dkf]

These extreme tests dont prove much too me it's like when a guy fills his Glock with a jar of raspberry preserves and then fires it for his torture test whats the point? Neither test proves real world conditions to me. How many people you know drop 1k rounds through their AR brass or steel within 30 minutes of non stop shooting heating that barrel up to ungodly temperatures that it was never meant to run constantly at right there?

I'll agree most people won't run nearly that much ammo through their AR. They said they kept the barrels under 750 degrees during the test. We will be running about 6k rounds through my friends .223/5.56 MG within a few hours this weekend but it is not an AR and not normal for 99% of people out there. It will be steel cased but that is what he said to bring so......

I cant say for sure but if I dont remember there being any gauging or measuring of the throat and lead of the chamber before starting these tests if the specs were poor or off and they can come like that all brand new then expect poor performance and longevity.

I don't think they gauged anything before the test. They just threw on a large piece of glass and benched them before the test for accuracy. I just find it hard to believe 3 barrels from 2 different manufacturers are out of spec.

[Hodgie]

Steel cased ammo to me is like eating McDonalds. If you eat it a few times a year it's probably not going to have an effect. If you eat it all the time, look out.

So far my experiences with it have led me to the conclusion that:

1. It doesn't really save you money or time in the long term.
It did at one time and still does having never known
anyone who actually had to replace any major parts due to wear.

2. It's not reliable, I've had 2 squibs with tulammo, among other issues.
Tul has been noted to be the worst possibly choice to use in almost any caliber including 7.62x39 in AK's and SKS's so it's a bad brand to base a decision off of.

3. My guns end up dirtier, requiring more cleaning.
Meh it's no big deal having to wipe down a bolt and clean the barrel and chamber.

4. Evidence points to these rounds causing more wear, debatable I guess.
Already been covered.

5. The cases have no value for reloading or scrap.
They can be reloaded however they are more brittle then brass and you get less reuses out of them.

6. Do you really trust the Russians?
The cold war ended a long time ago and Russians like money Barnaul has some excellent production since most of it comes from their military contract plant.

To me if you are a guy with a Bushmaster or cheap AR, shoot a couple of times a year and just shoot for recreation, by means Brown Bear it. But if you have guns worth money, do serious shooting, depend on these guns for defensive purposes or reload ammo, then feed your guns with good brass ammo.

I fit just about everyone of these categories. I shoot HP match rifles and do a lot of practice I reload my own ammunition for the actual match and use Steel for practice. My time is limited so shooting steel keeps the costs down and allows me to save some coin in the process. I use several different rifles but all get used in Practice and competition. The thinking that one should baby value their $2k Daniel Defense rifle more by not putting steel through it makes no sense too me. That 2k buys is supposed to buy me piece of mind that it will run 100% and accurately under any condition with any type of ammunition. You pay for perfection under adverse conditions not for perfection only with the high end ammunition.

I have run several Carbine courses l where you shoot 500 rounds in an afternoon. At the last one I used the expensive carbine and a half case of Silver bear. I did wipe the bolt, chamber and barrel down at half time and had a few failure to fires but others had minor issues as well it's common. I keep a SBR in my bedroom mounted in my closet for HD that has Hornday 77gr TAP fragmenting in it. I dont play around with me life or the life of my children.

It's just a matter of preference and knowing your rifles for me. Some people are strictly brass and that's cool I say have at it then if it was cheaper per 2 or 3 cases at a time I would only use it too.

[Hodgie]

I've shot lots of steel case ammo through my AR's with no problem, only time I ever had an issue was with a Rock River barrel, had some stick in the chamber, part of the reason I stick with quality barrels. My Colts, Spikes, LMT's and BCM's eat that shit like candy.

If steel gives you issues it's most likely an out of speck chamber.

Ahhh one of the issues that I am speaking about and is very common I have addressed it in other threads as well as here a bit. The throats are incorrectly reamed due to an overly used and well worn reamer. This issue will effect standard brass cased ammunition when going between .223 and 5.56 as well but due to the thicker bi metal jacket on the steel cased bullets it really shows.

[Hodgie]

I'll agree most people won't run nearly that much ammo through their AR. They said they kept the barrels under 750 degrees during the test. We will be running about 6k rounds through my friends .223/5.56 MG within a few hours this weekend but it is not an AR and not normal for 99% of people out there. It will be steel cased but that is what he said to bring so......



I don't think they gauged anything before the test. They just threw on a large piece of glass and benched them before the test for accuracy. I just find it hard to believe 3 barrels from 2 different manufacturers are out of spec.

I have a friend who is an excellent gun smith and machinist in Texas. He does contract work for local and state LE. He has looked over brand new high end manufacture including M16A1's that were marked .223/5.56 out of a couple dozen very costly rifles 6 had out of spec chambers that were way to narrow including the M16. Now this will not cause more wear in the barrel however it will cause major issues with reliably feeding 5.56 brass ammunition due to the pressure and the narrow chamber. The narrow chamber also causes issues with reliably feeding and firing the thicker Bi metal jackets on steel cased ammunition. By properly reaming the chamber it resolves the issue for all ammunition. Will there be some more wear sure but I am still considering is negligible.

I guess I am just a hard head but I really do have the round count to make me feel comfortable in saying this.

[dkf]

I have a friend who is an excellent well known gun smith and machinist in Texas. He does contract work for local and state LE. He has looked over brand new high end manufacture including M16A1's that were marked .223/5.56 out of a couple dozen very costly rifles 6 had out of spec chambers that were way to narrow including the M16. Now this will not cause more wear in the barrel however it will cause major issues with reliably feeding 5.56 brass ammunition due to the pressure and the narrow chamber. The narrow chamber also causes issues with reliably feeding and firing the thicker Bi metal jackets on steel cased ammunition. By properly reaming the chamber it resolves the issue for all ammunition. Will there be some more wear sure but I am still considering is negligible.

Even the beloved Colts. I don't doubt it, though there is really not an excuse for it. Roughing reamer, finish reamer and then inspection. (gauging) Of course variances in chrome thickness may come into play some. I am a machinist by trade so I understand the processes.

[Hodgie]

Even the beloved Colts. I don't doubt it, though there is really not an excuse for it. Roughing reamer, finish reamer and then inspection. (gauging) Of course variances in chrome thickness may come into play some. I am a machinist by trade so I understand the processes.

Due to modern crank em out manufacturing quality control for any off the line production firearm is inconsistent some times they are off by 0.001 where it wont matter in 99.9% of firearms and other times it's off big time. If they started out with a new reamer on Monday and your barrel was made 9000 later on Friday I guess you maybe screwed.

I have these debates all the time epically with 1911's with the whole loose VS tight tolerance and which is better for what ammo type and blah blah blah and that too typically comes back to ramp and chamber specs but no one wants to hear that a $400.00 RIA might not be as accurate as a Custom Night Hawk and on the flip side the Kimber guy's dont want to hear their $1200.00 feed ramp needs a polishing and their extractor claw isn't positive enough. I far from know everything that's for sure but I have picked up a few things and I sure wish I had more machining skills then I might be dangerous.

[dkf]

The advances in machinery have increased output however part inspection and QC also has advanced a lot. The issue is on machine probing, programmable CMMs, optical inspection and etc all cost money (often a lot of money) to implement and increase cycle time/time per part. Something you can sometimes pass along to the consumer depending on industry. If I am putting out thousands of barrels a week there should be a enough of a margin to implement some better inspection practices.

I don't know what some of these higher output barrel makers are using for reamers. If they are using HSS or cobalt or even an uncoated carbide they could squeeze some better performance out of the reamer with more advanced materials, coatings and geometries.