USE A HANDGUN RAIL?

[Carnes]

Whatever you do, do NOT put on the foregrip from an AR-15 on your pistol rail. Instant trip to PMITA prison.

So a vertical foregrip on a pistol turns it into AOW/NFA? Could you direct me to some documentation on this? Not that I would really want to put a foregrip on the glock, I just want to know BATFE's reasoning.

[TonyF]

1st generation smooth grip no finger grooves no rails. 2nd generation textured grip no finger grooves no rails. 3rd generation textured grip finger grooves accessory rails. Accessory rails are not available on the subcompact Glocks


Hope that answers your question.

It does but those are just enhancements to the frame.

Lots of engineering upgrades over the years that Glock chooses not to share with the general public.

The G19 "phase 3" malfunction is just one rather recent issue. This actually involved the Gen 3 series G19's.

[MTechnik]

So a vertical foregrip on a pistol turns it into AOW/NFA? Could you direct me to some documentation on this? Not that I would really want to put a foregrip on the glock, I just want to know BATFE's reasoning.

Sure, from here: http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/041006-vert_grip.htm

Adding a Vertical Fore Grip to a Handgun

“Handgun” is defined under Federal law to mean, in part, a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand…. Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(29).

Under an implementing regulation of the National Firearms Act (NFA), 27 C.F.R. § 479.11, “pistol” is defined as a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).

The NFA further defines the term “any other weapon” (AOW) as any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition. 26 U.S.C. § 5845(e).

ATF has long held that by installing a vertical fore grip on a handgun, the handgun is no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. Therefore, if individuals install a vertical fore grip on a handgun, they are “making” a firearm requiring registration with ATF’s NFA Branch. Making an unregistered “AOW” is punishable by a fine and 10 years’ imprisonment. Additionally, possession of an unregistered “AOW” is also punishable by fine and 10 years’ imprisonment.

To lawfully add a vertical fore grip to a handgun, a person must make an appropriate application on ATF Form 1, “Application to Make and Register a Firearm.” The applicant must submit the completed form, along with a fingerprint card bearing the applicant’s fingerprints; a photograph; and $200.00. The application will be reviewed by the NFA Branch. If the applicant is not prohibited from possessing a firearm under Federal, State, or local law, and possession of an “AOW” is not prohibited in the applicant’s State of residence, the form will be approved. Only then may the person add a vertical fore grip to the designated handgun.

A person may also send the handgun to a person licensed to manufacture NFA weapons. The manufacturer will install the fore grip on the firearm and register the firearm on an ATF Form 2. The manufacturer can then transfer the firearm back to the individual on an ATF Form 4, which results in a $5.00 transfer tax. If the manufacturer is out of State, the NFA Branch will need a clarification letter submitted with the ATF Form 4 so that the NFA Branch Examiner will know the circumstances of the transfer. Questions can be directed to the NFA Branch or the Firearms Technology Branch.

ETA: So, not only do you need the $200 stamp, you need someone who is a AOW manufacturer to re-register the firearm as an AOW.

[Carnes]

That's ridiculous, the GCA and NFA need to go. >

Thanks for the info!

[knighthawk06699]

It does but those are just enhancements to the frame.

Lots of engineering upgrades over the years that Glock chooses not to share with the general public.

The G19 "phase 3" malfunction is just one rather recent issue. This actually involved the Gen 3 series G19's.

One in 450,000 shots could possibly jam. Well statistics will tell you that if you stand near 450,000 lightning strikes guess what you could very possibly get killed. Funny thing is that the only ones having problems seems to be NYPD. They are notorious for not taking the best of care of their weapons.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-.../1695090/posts

[duane1]

I have a Taurus 24/7 with a laser and flashlight on the rail for home protection.

[TonyF]

One in 450,000 shots could possibly jam. Well statistics will tell you that if you stand near 450,000 lightning strikes guess what you could very possibly get killed. Funny thing is that the only ones having problems seems to be NYPD. They are notorious for not taking the best of care of their weapons.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-.../1695090/posts

First of all, I like glock pistols. I own two. A G17 and a G19.

Like it or not, the phase 3 problem was real. They saw them at gunsite and many other training venues.

Did you read that entire article?

As this malfunction became more of an issue, the Department naturally approached Glock, Inc. and requested assistance. At the onset, Glock refused to acknowledge the problem and only reluctantly agreed to replace one-for-one the guns that displayed the problem.

I personally know one officer, one of the most senior members assigned to the Emergency Services Unit, who had two different Model 19 pistols Phase Three on him three times on two consecutive days.

While NYPD itself was attempting to downplay the issue with MOS by asserting that the Phase Three malfunction had only occurred at the department range during practice and qualification sessions, they were, unfortunately, being less than truthful. As a Sergeant in a confidential investigative unit in mid-1997 I personally delivered to the range a Model 19 that had locked up tight after a Detective got off one round in a street confrontation.

In 1998 as a Lieutenant I worked with a police officer whose Model 19 did the same thing in a running gunfight.

Clearly this issue was getting out of hand and both the NYPD hierarchy and Glock management realized it.

Glock finally stood up and took notice when the NYPD contacted Sturm Ruger and requested pricing and delivery times for that company to replace every Glock Model 19 currently in use by the department with one of the Ruger P-series 9 X 19mm pistols. In response, Glock began taking a look at the extractor and the geometry of the surfaces of the slide and barrel hood in the area of the ejection port. As a result of this situation Glock began to make an earnest effort to correct the problem by making modifications to the design of the Model 19.

During the initial brief before the day's shooting began it was announced that every shooter would be putting 100 rounds through some "experimental" Glocks which the Department was testing.

During shooting, however, the "experimental" Model 19 proved to be problematic.

Slowly, the Phase Three issue has begun cropping up in areas previously unsullied. Pat Rogers has reported multiple Models 19 experiencing "Phase Threes" on the line at Gunsite over a three-day period.

Why did one group of 19s choke when the others didn't? Pat himself owned a Model 19 that suffered Phase Three stoppages so consistently that he had no choice but to get rid of it.

To anyone reading this thread. Glock has fixed the problem. If you're considering the purchase of a G19, buy with confidence. I did.

[Evolution]

Go with what your heart says. Glocks are great period regardless of the generation. If you don't plan on using the Rail then go ahead and get a cheaper 1st generation.

[SHEPHERD321]

Thanks for the replies. For an update my latest gun is a Glock 19 2nd gen.
Now to order 6 magazines.

[ithinkimamedic]

ETA: So, not only do you need the $200 stamp, you need someone who is a AOW manufacturer to re-register the firearm as an AOW.

Not 100% true. Anyone who can own the NFA item is qualified to register it as an AOW on a BAFTE Form 1 just as you would do a SBR or SBS. The big diffrence is that once it recored as a AOW is can be transfered on a Form 4 but with only a $5 tax stamp, not the $200 used for SBR's, SBS's, Silencers and Machine Guns.