Dogs

[FJW]

Mostly we talk about street muggings, carjackings, home invasión and mall shooters on these threads. And consequently we also get into other belabored discussions about caliber vs. caliber, revolver vs. semi-auto, open carry vs. concealed. and the micro-details involved in terminal wound ballistics.

But nearly all the time that we talk about these things, we are talking about human perpetrators. It seems to me that we have almost as much chance of being attacked by an adrenalized pit bull or a rabid German Shepherd...perpetrators of the canine persuasión...as we do by any of the two-legged variety. Many people have some very sobering stories to tell about having to defend themselves against canines using a particular firearm. Some of these stories aren't just sobering, they're enough to get you to take a good look at your choice of firearm and question it.

Most crazed canines don't look down the barrel of a gun and say "Oh, $&#T. Guess I'd better find someone else to pick on." And most crazed canines also don't think "Oh, $&#T. I've been shot, I'd better back off and get patched up quick or I'm gonna die", either. In some way this makes them potentially more dangerous than a human, especially if they are rabid. They don't have to think like we do, and they are subject much more primal urges without the inhibition of thought. It's kind of funny how there are so many stories about what kind of firepower and caliber it takes to drop a human perp, when there are also many cases that a canine perp gets hit 7 or 8 times with a 9mm...or even a .45...before it stops mauling a child. Therefore, maybe these canine confrontations provide excellent supplementary data for judging our firearms, then.

So what I'm getting it at, is that maybe these accounts of occasional canine "muggings" can also be every bit as enlightening as the human ones. Truth be known, these thoughts came to me in a thread I read recently about .380ACP being adequate for self-defense. I know people say thay shot-placement makes up for a .380's anemic energy level, and in many cases that could very well be true...especially when a two-legged perp is standing right in front of you with his chest exposed. But this is not the case with a canine. Of the real stories I have read or listened to, it seems that among the most popular cartridges, .45ACP is far more effective on crazed canines, and the accounts of when 9mm was used are really enough to deflate one's confidence in the round. Incidentally, I just started carrying a 9 as my EDC, so this concerns me as much as the threat of human perps. When I read the story of the boy who was mauled by wild dogs at the Pittsburgh Zoo (11 OF THEM!), I ask: Would I really want to have a gun which would only carry enough 9mm's to put one or two in each dog?

I know the zoo experience was a "once in 50 years" type of thing for most towns. But I'd like to hear some more accounts of people having to defend themselves against dogs and what the firearm and choice of ammo was, if anyone has any stories to tell. We can only get so much data regarding human shootings...so maybe adding the canine ones to the list could give us a much better idea as to the effectiveness of our platform, caliber and bullet choices without having to rely on human experimentation.

[kimtyson]

I ride a bicycle. I have pepper spray at my handlebars. I have encountered a few dogs along the way but none that have taken a bite from me. It is a real concern, though.

[Freedz]

Thats why my usual carry is .357 sig. It'll stop anything that I come across in this state and still conceals nicely.

[rwilson452]

I have had a couple of attacks by dogs. I have found a .45 with a 230gr GDHP get their attention real fast.

[Xtommytx123]

Good thread, I haven't thought about defending against dogs realy. I have been tossing around the idea of getting something In 45acp or a 357 mag to have something bigger than a 9mm for cc. I can't realy say for sure because I have never been attacked by any dog (or a person for that matter) but I would imagine again shot placement would be most important. I would personally try my best to not go frantic and stay calm and try to aim. Dogs have vital organs too. Again this is just a guess, I have never been attacked by anyone or anything that I have had to pull my pistol out, I have come close but no cigar. Anybody else have any story's to share?

[wakefield724]

I almost shot 1 the other day. I was waking my poodle who is scared of frogs and balloons let alone large dogs. It was dark out. In the corner of my eye I saw a giant figure running towards us. I dropped the leash, put my hand on my holster and screamed "back up" (I realize dogs don't understand English but it was just a reaction. Luckily this dog had no bad intentions and only sniffed my dog then sniffed me. Took it back the the owner who I knew and explained if it was someone else who was more gunhoe or was more scared then their dog would be dead so they should be more careful on keeping him locked up.

[mr_jumper]

Until I see a dog coming at me a with a drawn gun or knife in it's paws, I'm not going to worry about it.

If I have to fend off a whole pack of dogs, I have more problems than worrying about what caliber would put down the animal.



In all seriousness, it be hard pressed to shoot a dog which are in general hell-of-a-lot faster targets than humans. And believe me, I'd have hard time hitting moving human targets with a pistol.

I'd kick/punch/bite the dog before I think about un-holstering my EDC.

[ungawa]

Cap 'em like you're on the force

[Gman106]

Two Cane Corsos recently took down and killed a 46 y/o male jogger in Michigan, so dogs can most certainly can be a deadly threat. Apparently, these animals had previous aggressive behavior but the owners were unphased and now may face manslaughter charges. The victim looks like a healthy, fit guy, but obviously could not defend against these powerful dogs.



(stock photo)



(Victim: Craig Sytsma)



Source: NY Daily News:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.1880415

The owners of two massive cane corsos that mauled to death a man as he jogged along a rural Michigan road could face charges in the death, the third attack involving the dogs since 2012, authorities said.

The 3-year-old dogs were untethered when they pounced on Craig Sytsma, 46, as he jogged along Thomas Road, a rural dirt road in Metamora Township around 5:30 p.m. Wednesday. A neighbor mowing his lawn waved to the runner as he did a pass in the yard — then saw the man lying in a ditch, the two dogs ripping at the man’s arms, the next time he came around.

“He was jogging, doing what everybody else does out there, running and riding bikes,” Metamora Township police Officer Sean Leathers, one of the first on scene, said.

The neighbor grabbed a gun and fired it, grazing one of the beasts, in an attempt to scare the dogs off.

“He yelled at the dogs,” Lapeer County Sheriff’s Office Det. Sgt. Jason Parks told the Detroit Free Press. “They would not release.”

They eventually ran off back home. But the neighbor and another witness, a nurse who tried CPR, could not save the man, who had no identification or a cellphone.

Sytsma, a divorced father of three children, died an hour later at a local hospital.

It wasn’t until Thursday that police were able to identify the man after Sytsma’s employee showed up to the man’s office, Eltro Services in nearby Oxford Township, and realized the man’s car had been there overnight, the door to the building still unlocked.

The large Italian dogs, bred to hunt boar, are described as mastiff-type dogs known as “noble, majestic, and powerful in presence,” according to the American Kennel Club. The typically weigh around 100 pounds.

The dogs have been in Metamora, a town some 45 miles northwest of Detroit, since 2011 and known to law enforcement and animal control since a biting incident in 2012 — and a second in 2013.

The dogs are being held at the Lapeer County Animal Shelter and are expected to be euthanized.

“They’re a public threat,” Parks told the newspaper. “They’re beyond rehabilitation.”

The 45-year-old owner could face a charge like involuntary manslaughter in the deadly attack. The Lapeer County prosecutor’s office is reviewing the case, the office confirmed Friday.

The dogs’ owner made quite the impression on neighbors when he — and his menagerie of pets — moved to the neighborhood. He approached one woman, who has a young daughter, with pet hawk on his arm and one of the corsos running unleashed.

“I said, ‘Is he aggressive?’ And he said, ‘Yeah, everything I own is aggressive,’” Ashley Winter, 31, told the Free Press. “I thought, ‘What have we gotten ourselves into?’”

Locals found out fairly quickly. April Smith was walking by the home in May 2012 when one dog ran up behind her and latched onto her leg, tearing three holes in her leg and causing bleeding.

The attack stopped when the owner’s son called the animal off.

“I cannot believe this happened to someone,” Smith told the Free Press. “I’m not mad at the dogs, I’m so upset with the owners. I thought something would be done with these dogs, but nothing was done. Nothing was ever done. Those dogs are vicious. It’s not a joke.”

A man in his 70s was attacked in 2013, too, authorities confirmed.

“It’s just crazy to me,” Smith told the paper. “Animal control should have done something. It should have never gone this far. The fact this has led to a death, it’s sickening.”

[bill gray]

Ten years or more ago, a Cane Corso killed a person in California. The most memorable thing about the event was that the owners were lawyers who blamed the attack on the victim. He/she "must have done something to provoke the dog." There had been previous incidents with the dog. A Penna breeder had talked to the couple about selling them one of his dogs but he decided not to sell. He did not like their attitude about owning such a potentially dangerous animal. Properly trained and treated well, any breed can be a good pet but you can make a monster out of a Chihuahua. After two documented attacks, many jurisdictions would have put heavy restrictions on the owner and the two dogs and I bet they wish they had.