LEOSA carry in NJ? TRICKY QUESTIONS - PLEASE HELP!

[bugout]

Getting alot of different responses to these questions, so I am posting here where I have gotten some good advice in the past...

There was a revision to LEOSA in 2010 and 2013, further restricting the statues; please do not respond unless you are familiar with these revisions as I need up-to-date information. (ref: http://www.policemag.com/channel/wea...ly-to-you.aspx)

OK my questions:

1 - Given all the new info, can LEO carry concealed in NJ?
2 - If so, what is the requisite ID that is needed to have on your person while carrying? (article above stated that CAC card - fed govt ID - is not enough, what specifically is needed?)
3 - Lastly (most tricky question) - what if you are non-DOD, Federal Law Enforcement Staffer with arrest rights/ carry on-duty, etc but you are not 'named' an officer? -before you say WTF, this does exist, there are some GS-0080 physical security specialists with these rights/ training , some do the same work as a -0083 officer but with added duties. An example would be maybe a VA PSS with above named rights/ requirements. Does LEOSA apply to these GS- or only TR- series officers?

Thanks all!

[tl_3237]

Getting alot of different responses to these questions, so I am posting here where I have gotten some good advice in the past...

There was a revision to LEOSA in 2010 and 2013, further restricting the statues; please do not respond unless you are familiar with these revisions as I need up-to-date information. (ref: http://www.policemag.com/channel/wea...ly-to-you.aspx)

OK my questions:

1 - Given all the new info, can LEO carry concealed in NJ?
2 - If so, what is the requisite ID that is needed to have on your person while carrying? (article above stated that CAC card - fed govt ID - is not enough, what specifically is needed?)
3 - Lastly (most tricky question) - what if you are non-DOD, Federal Law Enforcement Staffer with arrest rights/ carry on-duty, etc but you are not 'named' an officer? -before you say WTF, this does exist, there are some GS-0080 physical security specialists with these rights/ training , some do the same work as a -0083 officer but with added duties. An example would be maybe a VA PSS with above named rights/ requirements. Does LEOSA apply to these GS- or only TR- series officers?

Thanks all!

1. YES - LEOSA always could, in fact LEOSA ONLY covers CC.
2. see (d) below.
3. see (c) and (f). If still unsure then your particular agency should be able to advise if you are LEOSA qualified.

18 USC §926B. Carrying of concealed firearms by qualified law enforcement officers

(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of the law of any State or any political subdivision thereof, an individual who is a qualified law enforcement officer and who is carrying the identification required by subsection (d) may carry a concealed firearm that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, subject to subsection (b).

(b) This section shall not be construed to supersede or limit the laws of any State that-

(1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property; or
(2) prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms on any State or local government property, installation, building, base, or park.

(c) As used in this section, the term “qualified law enforcement officer” means an employee of a governmental agency who-

(1) is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of, or the incarceration of any person for, any violation of law, and has statutory powers of arrest or apprehension under section 807(b) of title 10, United States Code (article 7(b) of the Uniform Code of Military Justice);
(2) is authorized by the agency to carry a firearm;
(3) is not the subject of any disciplinary action by the agency which could result in suspension or loss of police powers;
(4) meets standards, if any, established by the agency which require the employee to regularly qualify in the use of a firearm;
(5) is not under the influence of alcohol or another intoxicating or hallucinatory drug or substance; and
(6) is not prohibited by Federal law from receiving a firearm.

(d) The identification required by this subsection is the photographic identification issued by the governmental agency for which the individual is employed that identifies the employee as a police officer or law enforcement officer of the agency.

(e) As used in this section, the term “firearm”-

(1) except as provided in this subsection, has the same meaning as in section 921 of this title;
(2) includes ammunition not expressly prohibited by Federal law or subject to the provisions of the National Firearms Act; and
(3) does not include-

(A) any machinegun (as defined in section 5845 of the National Firearms Act);
(B) any firearm silencer (as defined in section 921 of this title); and
(C) any destructive device (as defined in section 921 of this title).

(f) For the purposes of this section, a law enforcement officer of the Amtrak Police Department, a law enforcement officer of the Federal Reserve, or a law enforcement or police officer of the executive branch of the Federal Government qualifies as an employee of a governmental agency who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of, or the incarceration of any person for, any violation of law, and has statutory powers of arrest or apprehension under section 807(b) of title 10, United States Code (article 7(b) of the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

Text contains those laws in effect on May 31, 2014

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thanks for the quick and comprehensive answers...

the position in question certainly qualifies under all subparts of (c) but kind of a 'gray area' on (d)
I will have to see about what the ID card from the agency states, so it has to say 'officer' specifically?

for the same reason, section (f) has me concerned because it keep saying "officer" and the position that I am referring to is a "GS-0080 physical security specialist" which is a broad series and in this particular instance one possessing everything in subpart (c)... except for the fact that 'officer' is not part of that titling has me concern about qualifying under (f).

Is satisfying (c) enough in this instance or does do (c), (d) and (f) all need to be satisfied?

[Hodgie]

3 - Lastly (most tricky question) - what if you are non-DOD, Federal Law Enforcement Staffer with arrest rights/ carry on-duty, etc but you are not 'named' an officer? -before you say WTF, this does exist, there are some GS-0080 physical security specialists with these rights/ training , some do the same work as a -0083 officer but with added duties. An example would be maybe a VA PSS with above named rights/ requirements. Does LEOSA apply to these GS- or only TR- series officers?

These jobs typically only grant LE powers while you are on duty and do not allow your duty weapon to by carried while off duty and most of these capital & Fed security jobs require the issued weapon to stay on prem. there is no off duty carry allowed or granted for many of these positions there fore CC within he same state and others would be deemed illegal since the employees powers don't extend past the front door. Anyone who chooses to carry thinking they have the rights across state lines better have a good lawyer on retainer.

Leosa only applies to LE officers who have powers and rights too detain or arrest while hey are off duty. I was also under the impression that LEOSA only applies after the individual has been with the same dpt for 8 years minimum.

[tl_3237]

thanks for the quick and comprehensive answers...

the position in question certainly qualifies under all subparts of (c) but kind of a 'gray area' on (d)
I will have to see about what the ID card from the agency states, so it has to say 'officer' specifically?

for the same reason, section (f) has me concerned because it keep saying "officer" and the position that I am referring to is a "GS-0080 physical security specialist" which is a broad series and in this particular instance one possessing everything in subpart (c)... except for the fact that 'officer' is not part of that titling has me concern about qualifying under (f).

Is satisfying (c) enough in this instance or does do (c), (d) and (f) all need to be satisfied?

IMO if you meet all the qualifications of (c) then, for LEOSA purposes, you are a “qualified law enforcement officer”. Your civil service job title is not dispositive - your job duties are.

Subsection (d) is a little stickier in that, if your agency decides not to consider you a qualified officer for LEOSA then they simply do not issue the ID.

Having been a civil servant I appreciate how the minor "fiefdoms" can operate/mis-operate. You really need to push this forward through your managerial chain to ascertain their policy and, if necessary, to seek policy change.

[HiredGoon]

You should check, check, check and double-double check this out before stepping into NJ with a concealed pistol!
IANAL nor a LEO.

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Is what Hodgie saying correct? Because I was under the impression what he is stating is incorrect.

Possessing arrest powers/ carry on-duty certainly only apply to your jurisdiction, but that is the same for ALL cases. Whether it is a Phila cop who can only exercise this right in their jurisdiction or a Fed officer/ agent who exercises it within their building/ named asset...

Not starting anything Hodgie, but by your standard then how would ANY LEO be covered by LEOSA to be able to cc in anywhere other than their area of jurisdiction?

[tl_3237]

These jobs typically only grant LE powers while you are on duty and do not allow your duty weapon to by carried while off duty and most of these capital & Fed security jobs require the issued weapon to stay on prem. there is no off duty carry allowed or granted for many of these positions there fore CC within he same state and others would be deemed illegal since the employees powers don't extend past the front door. Anyone who chooses to carry thinking they have the rights across state lines better have a good lawyer on retainer.

Leosa only applies to LE officers who have powers and rights too detain or arrest while hey are off duty. I was also under the impression that LEOSA only applies after the individual has been with the same dpt for 8 years minimum.

You are thinking about Retired LEOSA which is 18 USC 926C, I presume the OP is currently employed. The requirement for retired LEOSA is 10 years unless cut short by a service connected disability.

As to whether the qualification extends to limited jurisdiction personnel, the link "bugout" supplied did go into this somewhat. See the case about the Coast Guard Reservist.

[Hodgie]

You are thinking about Retired LEOSA which is 18 USC 926C, I presume the OP is currently employed. The requirement for retired LEOSA is 10 years unless cut short by a service connected disability.

As to whether the qualification extends to limited jurisdiction personnel, the link "bugout" supplied did go into this somewhat. See the case about the Coast Guard Reservist.

Okay thank you for correcting me on this, however I believe my 1st statement is correct regarding LE having the power to arrest & detain while being off duty meaning it's a 24/7 job unlike a federal or capital security who can only excercise that ability while on duty in their place of work.

The only reason I say this is I come from a LE family my brother was a LE officer for 20 years and now he works for the DOD he states that LEOSA does not apply any of his employees who carry and can arrest on duty. That may just be with the G4S company he works for which has most of he Secutiry contracts for the Feds in DC and VA.

I just don't want to see you or anyone get into a bind if I am incorrect I apologize.

[tl_3237]

Okay thank you for correcting me on this, however I believe my 1st statement is correct regarding LE having the power to arrest & detain while being off duty meaning it's a 24/7 job unlike a federal or capital security who can only excercise that ability while on duty in their place of work.

The only reason I say this is I come from a LE family my brother was a LE officer for 20 years and now he works for the DOD he states that LEOSA does not apply any of his employees who carry and can arrest on duty. That may just be with the company he works for which hands most of he Secutiry contracts for the Feds in DC and VA.

Did you read "bugout's" link?

Another argument frequently raised by agencies hostile to LEOSA is that an individual must possess both law enforcement authority and agency authorization to carry a firearm while off duty in order to qualify for LEOSA. In one of the few criminal cases to examine this issue, People v. Booth, 862 N.Y.S.2d 767, (NY. Co. Ct. 2008), the defendant, a Coast Guard reservist, was charged with the crime of Criminal Possession of a Weapon in the Second Degree after a loaded handgun was found in a compartment underneath the seat of the vehicle in which he was traveling. Even though Booth was off duty at the time of his arrest and did not possess agency authority to carry while off duty, the Court found that Booth's duties in the Coast Guard, which were defined "as the prevention, detection, [and] investigation of violations of the law" as well as his "authority and duty to arrest violators" and qualification to carry a firearm, despite its time and place restrictions, qualified him for LEOSA and exempted him from prosecution under New York State Law. Id. at 770.

I'm not aware of any Federal case law but at least one state court disagrees with your theory. Check with your brother, maybe he has some AG or similar opinion that could help answer the question.