New resident, out of state references?

[smldg]

I've just moved to Philadelphia from CA, so naturally getting my LTCF is a priority now that I actually can - I lived in SF before where they've approved something like 3 permits in the past couple of decades.

The problem is the requirement of two references - I don't really know anyone in the state yet (that I'm not related to), certainly not well enough to ask them to vouch for me on an official form. The reference forms specifically ask for a PA drivers license # - does that mean they won't accept out of state references? Has anyone successfully used references that weren't PA residents?

Thanks!

[yeager484]

You're going to be told that you can fill out exactly what's legally required by law and do nothing more.

Statistically, you're probably going to end up doing the "more" anyway, so you may as well find someone else in PA who will fit what Philly asks you for.

In case you're in that first camp, you don't need to have in state references, fingerprints taken, to interview, or anything other than fill out the required form and hand them $20. I'm on mobile so I can't link the form, but this has come up often with Philly residents, should be able to find the threads using search.

[smldg]

Interesting, I didn't realize that the references weren't required by law - I was just going by this paragraph on the form I downloaded, which seems pretty clear cut on the references being required:

"4. NOTE: Failure to provide (2) references (NOT FAMILY MEMBERS), as required on your application, will result in your application being denied, and forfeiture of your application fee. Enclosed are two references information sheets that your references may use for their convenience. References should include name, address, date of birth and PA State ID or drivers license number at the top of the form."

[Kurt_D]

Actually, listing two references is on the PA application form and is legal but asks for name, addr. and tel # only.

The only restriction on references is SUPPOSED to be that they are not family members. It says nothing about where they have to live - whether in-county or in-state. HOWEVER, Phila. has put some additional requirements on the application which are not mandated (i.e. are not legal) by the statute but they ask for them anyway. Adding the additional reference statement forms is one of them and I do see that they ask for the reference's PADL #. But, I do not know if a PA residency requirement for references is actually part of their hoop-jumping circus.

In case you don't have it, here's a link to their application package:

http://www.phillypolice.com/assets/f...pplication.pdf

As yeager484 noted you can either toe their line or argue with them about the legality of their application requirements (may not be very successful).

BTW, the statute also says that the majority of the license fee is refundable if the application is rejected - that's state law so this statement is pure BS:

...and forfeiture of your application fee.

Ref:

18 Pa.C.S. § 6109: Licenses:

(6) Except for the administrative fee of $5 under section 14(2) of the Sheriff Fee Act, all other fees shall be refunded if the application is denied but shall not be refunded if a license is issued and subsequently revoked.

(bolding and italics are my edits)

That means if they deny you, you should get $15 refunded.

[PAcarrier]

I'm not sure how fussy they'll be in Philly, but when I moved back to PA from 18 years living in NC, the only references I provided were people in NC. When I went back to renew about a month ago, I listed the same people, because I still stay in touch with them and they've known me longer than anyone here.

You shouldn't have any problems.

[RebelRaider5]

Yeah, the Uniform Firearms Act says all applications have to be the same. The rest of the State [except Montgomery County] all have one page applications to the best of my knowledge.

That being said Philadelphia gets away with this by claiming it's part of their investigation and because most people who apply don't know any better. If I were in your shoes, I'd ask any friends you have back home to print out the forums, fill out the reference sheets and mail it to you.

Some have gotten away with out having the refernce sheets filled out. Just writing the names & numbers on the first page where it says refernces. If you don't fill out the forums they probably will call your references but if you DO get your refernce forms filled out problem solved.


Just wanted to add this, This is from a thread that is a few years old:

Greeting all, I have been lurking on this website for quite a while and this is my first post. I was in the same boat with regard to references forms when I applied for my LTCF in Philly. However if you note #4 of the instructions sheet that they provide, the reference form "Enclosed are two references information sheets that your references may use for their convenience." The key was the word may for me and the fact that the state law says that it must be a uniform one page application. So I filled out all that was required on the one page application, brought all else that was required and went to the office.

I was first seen by a lady who asked all the usual BS questions that they ask. She then looked over the paper work and told me that the reference forms need to be filled out. I politely reminded her that the state law did not require me to do that and moreover their own instructions state that I MAY but dont have to use them for "convenience" of my references. (I actually had to point out the exact wording on #4 of the instruction sheet cause she was not aware of that!!) She then rather annoyed went to the back and another gentleman came back to talk to me. In essence he stated that I was technically right but I was really reading into the law and their own instructions. He stated that they try to hold them selves to higher standard then the rest of the state. I did say that they must follow they state law and he replied that since they are the issuing authority they believe that they can require additional things. I then told him that, well all I am doing is following the law and their own instructions (ie #4) and I think I know what the word "MAY" means. And that I choose not to use the reference forms for MY own convenience.

I thanked him for his time. He took my application and I got my LTCF in I think 40 days or so. But both of the references were called. Also one was from Bucks county and the other was from Long Island NY, so all that crap about them being from Philly is just that, crap. As long as they are not your relatives, you are good.

So in summary, F&$K'em, they still have to follow the law and then know it.

Sorry about this being so long.

[Kapitan]

Hell yeah!!

For all you guys and gals complaint about references, I had to get 7 references (3 of then notorized!!) to get my NYS permit among other ridiculous actions that it took to get my guys up to upstate ny (and no I do not want to hear anything about moving to that god forsaken place. It's too late!! I do miss my 17 roung magazines among many other things.).

So yeah, f&$k Philly gun permit unit. At the end the can't deny u your license for following the law.

[smldg]

Some have gotten away with out having the refernce sheets filled out. Just writing the names & numbers on the first page where it says refernces. If you don't fill out the forums they probably will call your references but if you DO get your refernce forms filled out problem solved.

Got it - I had completely missed the two fields on the main application form where you add your references, so that should seem to satisfy the requirement I quoted above without the attached information sheets. There's another part where they say they won't accept the application without the attached sheets, but it sounds like you can talk your way past that. I'll just try that - the worst they can do is refuse to accept it and then I'll just have to have friends mail those to me.

[BimmerJon]

Your references can be from anywhere in the world

Here is your application
Anything not on this 1 page application is not required by law

http://www.montcopa.org/DocumentCenter/View/3880