Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default New Court Opinion WILL affect Concealed Carry in Vehicles!!!!

    A PA Supreme Court decision by Supreme Court Justice Seamus McCaffery on April 29th, 2014 states in part that a VEHICLE MAY BE SEARCHED and a Warrant is not needed.

    If the police stop your vehicle for any reason it gives them probably cause to search your vehicle without your permission.

    As you can see this causes problems with your Concealed Carry permit as it is currently written there is no legal basis that you must inform a officer that you are armed. If your vehicle is searched now, they can produce your gun without your permission.

    Where does this leave us, the law abiding citizens of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania?

    Links to pdf of opinion: http://www.pacourts.us/assets/opinio...81959.pdf?cb=1
    Last edited by Tommahawk; April 30th, 2014 at 11:52 AM. Reason: Add in link to Opinion

  2. #2
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    Default Re: New Court Opinion WILL affect Concealed Carry in Vehicles!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tommahawk View Post
    A PA Supreme Court decision by Supreme Court Justice Seamus McCaffery on April 29th, 2014 states in part that a VEHICLE MAY BE SEARCHED and a Warrant is not needed.

    If the police stop your vehicle for any reason it gives them probably cause to search your vehicle without your permission.

    As you can see this causes problems with your Concealed Carry permit as it is currently written there is no legal basis that you must inform a officer that you are armed. If your vehicle is searched now, they can produce your gun without your permission.

    Where does this leave us, the law abiding citizens of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania?

    Links to pdf of opinion: http://www.pacourts.us/assets/opinio...81959.pdf?cb=1

    No, they need probable cause of a crime to search you're car without a warrant. This has always been the case and the court ruling just reitterated it. If you are speeding and get pulled over that is not probable cause that you are hiding drugs in you're car. If you get pulled over and the cop smell pot wafting from you're car then that is a different story. IANAL but I believe this has been the way it has been for sometime.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: New Court Opinion WILL affect Concealed Carry in Vehicles!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tommahawk View Post
    A PA Supreme Court decision by Supreme Court Justice Seamus McCaffery on April 29th, 2014 states in part that a VEHICLE MAY BE SEARCHED and a Warrant is not needed.

    If the police stop your vehicle for any reason it gives them probably cause to search your vehicle without your permission.

    As you can see this causes problems with your Concealed Carry permit as it is currently written there is no legal basis that you must inform a officer that you are armed. If your vehicle is searched now, they can produce your gun without your permission.

    Where does this leave us, the law abiding citizens of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania?

    Links to pdf of opinion: http://www.pacourts.us/assets/opinio...81959.pdf?cb=1
    They had probable cause in this case: the smell of pot and the occupant admitted he had pot.

    I didn't read the whole 62 pages but I don't see how this has changed anything when they already have probable cause.

    I'll have to read further to see if what you claim is true. Can you point to or highlight the part where 'any stop' provides 'probable cause' to search your vehicle?
    Kind Regards,
    ChuckS

    “The will to win is important. But the will to prepare is vital.” — Joe Paterno

  4. #4
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    Default Re: New Court Opinion WILL affect Concealed Carry in Vehicles!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckS View Post
    They had probable cause in this case: the smell of pot and the occupant admitted he had pot.
    Well, alleged smell of pot and the cop claimed he admitted he had pot. I think the cop probably lied about the latter.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: New Court Opinion WILL affect Concealed Carry in Vehicles!!!!

    As soon as they stop the vehicle, it gives them probable cause because under the law, even if you are caught speeding you have already committed the primary offense. This absolutely gives them right to search your vehicle now!!

  6. #6
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    Default Re: New Court Opinion WILL affect Concealed Carry in Vehicles!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tommahawk View Post
    As you can see this causes problems with your Concealed Carry permit as it is currently written there is no legal basis that you must inform a officer that you are armed. If your vehicle is searched now, they can produce your gun without your permission.

    Where does this leave us, the law abiding citizens of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania?

    Links to pdf of opinion: http://www.pacourts.us/assets/opinio...81959.pdf?cb=1
    If you are a "law abiding citizen of the Commonwealth", have a LTCF and the gun is legal, I don't understand the problem.
    Last edited by olderguy; April 30th, 2014 at 01:26 PM.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: New Court Opinion WILL affect Concealed Carry in Vehicles!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tommahawk View Post
    As soon as they stop the vehicle, it gives them probable cause because under the law, even if you are caught speeding you have already committed the primary offense. This absolutely gives them right to search your vehicle now!!
    That wasn't true before, and it's not true now.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: New Court Opinion WILL affect Concealed Carry in Vehicles!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tommahawk View Post
    As soon as they stop the vehicle, it gives them probable cause because under the law, even if you are caught speeding you have already committed the primary offense. This absolutely gives them right to search your vehicle now!!
    No on your headline.

    No on this.
    "A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself"

    "He created the game, played the game, and lost the game.... All under his own terms, by his own doing." JW34

    "Tolerance is the lube that helps slip the dildo of dysfunction into the ass of a civilized society." Plato

  9. #9
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    Default Re: New Court Opinion WILL affect Concealed Carry in Vehicles!!!!

    Prior to this ruling police needed:

    1) Probable cause that the vehicle contains evidence of a crime
    2) The vehicle needed to be immediately mobile
    3) There had to be no prior knowledge that the evidence was inside the vehicle.

    After the ruling yesterday:

    1) Probable cause that the vehicle contains evidence of a crime
    2) Inherent mobility of the vehicle

    The problem was that even the Pennsylvania Supreme Court was all over the place in their decisions and needed to decide what standard they wanted to adopt. It was confusing to the police, the prosecutors, and the courts.

    The case law was there to search the vehicle without a warrant prior to this decision... it was a matter of weather it would get past suppression depending on what judge you were in front of.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: New Court Opinion WILL affect Concealed Carry in Vehicles!!!!

    Probable cause still needed.

    "[J-5-2013]
    IN THE SUPREME COURT OF PENNSYLVANIA
    EASTERN DISTRICT

    CASTILLE, C.J., SAYLOR, EAKIN, BAER, TODD, McCAFFERY, ORIE MELVIN, JJ.


    COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA,

    Appellant


    v.


    SHIEM GARY,

    Appellee
    :
    :
    :
    :
    :
    :
    :
    :
    :
    :
    :
    No. 26 EAP 2012

    Appeal from the Order of the Superior
    Court, No. 3080 EDA 2010

    29 A.3d 804 (Pa.Super. 2011)

    ARGUED: March 5, 2013

    OPINION ANNOUNCING THE JUDGMENT OF THE COURT


    MR. JUSTICE McCAFFERY DECIDED: April 29, 2014

    In this case, we again address the requirements in this Commonwealth for a
    warrantless search of a motor vehicle. After consideration of relevant federal and state
    law, we now hold that with respect to a warrantless search of a motor vehicle that is
    supported by probable cause, Article I, Section 8 of the Pennsylvania Constitution
    affords no greater protection than the Fourth Amendment to the United States
    Constitution. Accordingly, we adopt the federal automobile exception to the warrant
    requirement, which allows police officers to search a motor vehicle when there is
    probable cause to do so and does not require any exigency beyond the inherent
    mobility of a motor vehicle. "

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