Reasonable Self Defense or 1st Degree Murder?

[WereWolf]

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/youre-de...-teen-burglar/

Jurors heard an audio recording Tuesday of the moments when two teenagers were fatally shot by a Minnesota homeowner who says he feared for his life after several previous break-ins.

Byron Smith, 65, of Little Falls, is charged with first-degree premeditated murder in the slayings of 17-year-old Nick Brady and 18-year-old Haile Kifer on Thanksgiving Day 2012. The shooting stunned the small city and stirred debate about how far people can go in defending their homes.

Smith told police that he armed himself and set up recording devices following repeated break-ins. Morrison County jurors heard glass break on the recording, then two gunshots as Brady groaned. Smith told Brady, "You're dead," the Star Tribune reported.

Almost immediately after Brady is shot, rustling of a tarp can be heard, then a dragging sound and heavy breathing. Smith has said he had moved Brady to a workshop in his basement to keep him from staining the basement carpet.

The audio continued with the sound of a gun reloading, then more deep breaths. In a quiet, low voice several minutes later, a female mumbles "Nick." Gunshots are heard again, as well as the sound of Kifer falling. Smith quickly said "Oh, sorry about that." Then Kifer said "Oh my God!" and screams.
Amid more shots, Smith told Kifer, "you're dying," and then calls her a derogatory name for a woman. After more heavy breathing and another dragging sound, Smith calls Kifer the name again. After more movement, the crack of a gun is heard.

What do we think? Did this guy over the top or was he reasonable? We usually say you shoot to stop the threat, but I can't really blame the guy who killing the idiots who decided to break into his house for the third time in a year. Clearly the guy shot himself in the foot by recording the altercation and not calling the cops until the next day.

This was previously discussed. Feel free to delete this thread.

http://forum.pafoa.org/lounge-108/19...olice-say.html

[Mitch10mm]

He's a friggin murderer. There's another thread discussing this. He executed them plain and simple.

[streaker69]

Other thread: http://forum.pafoa.org/lounge-108/25...ht=byron+smith

[free]

1234567890

[Berks_Iraq_Vet]

You break into a home, all bets are off, IMO.

[HFultzjr]

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/youre-de...-teen-burglar/



What do we think? Did this guy over the top or was he reasonable? We usually say you shoot to stop the threat, but I can't really blame the guy who killing the idiots who decided to break into his house for the third time in a year. Clearly the guy shot himself in the foot by recording the altercation and not calling the cops until the next day.

This was previously discussed. Feel free to delete this thread.

http://forum.pafoa.org/lounge-108/19...olice-say.html

I feel I could not judge this man unless I sat on the jury and heard ALL THE FACTS AND INFO presented.

Can't judge someone on a news story.

[Kabloosh]

He clearly murdered them.

The kids were in the obvious wrong for breaking into a person's home especially three times. That is certainly reckless and they definitely paid the price for it.

It was murder for several reasons.

1. This guy finished the kids off. It is at minimal excessive force... and fucked up. Cops while they shoot for areas that will stop the person the quickly are not trained to kill them only to stop them from doing the action that led them to use deadly force against them. In other words once they shoot a person they can apprehend them, and then administer aid to them. Not make sure the guy is dead by shooting them while they are down.
2. He planned and lied in wait. Even set it up. These kids were obviously breaking into this guys home when he was not there. Most burglars interested in stealing things do this because they are not interested in a confrontation. They likely would have ran if they had the chance especially if the guy was holding a gun.
3. He didn't get authorities involved after the first break in. He should have had the cops involved a long time ago. Stolen electronics and stuff can usually be replaced by home owners insurance. Instead he decided to commit his own sort of vigilante justice.

[PAMedic=F|A=]

He clearly murdered them.

The kids were in the obvious wrong for breaking into a person's home especially three times. That is certainly reckless and they definitely paid the price for it.

It was murder for several reasons.

1. This guy finished the kids off. It is at minimal excessive force... and fucked up. Cops while they shoot for areas that will stop the person the quickly are not trained to kill them only to stop them from doing the action that led them to use deadly force against them. In other words once they shoot a person they can apprehend them, and then administer aid to them. Not make sure the guy is dead by shooting them while they are down.
2. He planned and lied in wait. Even set it up. These kids were obviously breaking into this guys home when he was not there. Most burglars interested in stealing things do this because they are not interested in a confrontation. They likely would have ran if they had the chance especially if the guy was holding a gun.
3. He didn't get authorities involved after the first break in. He should have had the cops involved a long time ago. Stolen electronics and stuff can usually be replaced by home owners insurance. Instead he decided to commit his own sort of vigilante justice.

1 he states he was still fearful.
2. He missed the 2nd one; she laughed & failed to retreat.
3. You are assuming he has home owners insurance. If he owns the home, it may not be required. Also; there had been MANY other break ins, not just his residence. His neighbors have reported he talked about his fear prior to the incident.

Not guilty & should have never been charged.

[internet troll]

2. He missed the 2nd one; she laughed & failed to retreat.


Not guilty & should have never been charged.

From the article in the thread Streaker linked to.

After killing Brady, Smith sat down in a chair and waited. Once Kifer began coming down the stairs, he shot her too. He tried to shoot her again after she fell down the stairs, but said his gun jammed. The criminal complaint states that Kifer then laughed, and Smith then shot her several times in the chest before dragging her into the room where Brady's body was.


Smith told police that Kifer was still gasping for air, so he fired what he called a "good, clean finishing shot" under her chin "up into the cranium."

hard to retreat when you have fallen down the stairs after being shot. being able to walk up and put a shot into her cranium while shes gasping for breath doesn't seem like she could resist much. They were criminals and thieves, I don't dispute that.

If he shot her and just walked away as she was lying there I would probably agree with you. Feeling the need to put the finishing bullet in her brain took him from the role of victim to psychopathic vigilante murderer imo and he should be charged. There is a line a person can cross that makes a victim no better than criminals out there and he found that line and jumped over it.

[Kabloosh]

From the article in the thread Streaker linked to.



hard to retreat when you have fallen down the stairs after being shot. being able to walk up and put a shot into her cranium while shes gasping for breath doesn't seem like she could resist much. They were criminals and thieves, I don't dispute that.

If he shot her and just walked away as she was lying there I would probably agree with you. Feeling the need to put the finishing bullet in her brain took him from the role of victim to psychopathic vigilante murderer imo and he should be charged. There is a line a person can cross that makes a victim no better than criminals out there and he found that line and jumped over it.

From the transcripts he doesn't sound very fearful either.