Question about private handgun transfer?

[X-Man]

I would like to buy a handgun from my friend. In preparation to do so I called several dealers to inquire about the transfer process. To my surprise they all said that a Pa. driver's license is absolutely required for the transfer. When I explained that I have a LTCF they all said it can't be used for a transfer. Now, when I applied for the LTCF I read over the UFA and the regulations 37 PA. Code Chs. 31 & 33. I just can't locate where it is stated in the reg's that a driver's license is required. Under the heading of definitions the reg's gives a list of several forms of ID that are acceptable. So I need a bit of help to understand more about this situation. Can a Pa. LTCF, a type of state issued photo ID be used for a transfer? I suspect that the reality is two fold, the reg's quote one thing and the agency does something else. Also, to answer why I just don't give them a driver's license, well because it's a driver's license, not a national identity card. At this point I'd like to stay on the narrow topic of the requirements of the reg's when making a transfer. Thanks in advance, because of this site, the exchange of ideas and knowledge, and the people found here all made it possible for me to obtain my LTCF.

[gnbrotz]

It appears they are wrong:

§6111 (b)(2)
(2) Inspected photoidentification of the potential purchaser or transferee, including, but not limited to, a driver's license, official Pennsylvania photoidentification card or official government photoidentification card. In the case of a potential buyer or transferee who is a member of a recognized religious sect or community whose tenets forbid or discourage the taking of photographs of members of that sect or community, a seller shall accept a valid-without-photo driver's license or a combination of documents, as prescribed by the Pennsylvania State Police, containing the applicant's name, address, date of birth and the signature of the applicant.

Based on that, a photo id from your employer should be enough.

[Pa. Patriot]

Yes, they are mistaken, as gnbrotz pointed out.

The problem stems from the process in which a dealer runs your PICS check.

They call PICS, enter dealer# and PW.

The automated system then asked for the "drivers license" of the purchaser.

So, if the dealer does not have the buyers DL he must select to speak with an operator to do the check. Can't use the automated feature.

I'm quite certain this is where the confusion is coming from.

[X-Man]

PaPatriot & Gnbrotz; Thanks for the reply. Your responses confirm what I suspected, it's one of those situations that the dealers just don't come across very often. I don't have any negative comments about these dealers as we all know what kind of BS they have to put up with. I'll try meeting with one of them and have a informed discussion based upon a reading of the reg's. Might take a few visits to find a sympathetic dealer, though. But it will be worth the effort. Been too long since I added to my collection!

[SteveWag]

While I post a sign in my shop that says "PA Drivers Liscense Required" I do accept other forms of ID. BUT IT MUST BE ISSUED BY A GOVERMENT ENITY. I have not used PA LTCF, I have used out of state DL's and Military ID's. As above. it's just easier to use the PA D.L.
Steve

[gnbrotz]

BUT IT MUST BE ISSUED BY A GOVERMENT ENITY.

Let's just be clear that this is your personal shop policy, but not required by statute.

[lildobe]

Let's just be clear that this is your personal shop policy, but not required by statute.

Greg - your quote of the regs says otherwise...

§6111 (b)(2)
(2) Inspected photoidentification of the potential purchaser or transferee, including, but not limited to, a driver's license, official Pennsylvania photoidentification card or official government photoidentification card. In the case of a potential buyer or transferee who is a member of a recognized religious sect or community whose tenets forbid or discourage the taking of photographs of members of that sect or community, a seller shall accept a valid-without-photo driver's license or a combination of documents, as prescribed by the Pennsylvania State Police, containing the applicant's name, address, date of birth and the signature of the applicant.

Reading that I'd surmise that it has to be Gov. Issue to be valid for firearms purchase.

[gnbrotz]

Greg - your quote of the regs says otherwise...



Reading that I'd surmise that it has to be Gov. Issue to be valid for firearms purchase.

See the highlighted red portion in my first reply (post #2).

[X-Man]

Steve; The statue quoted SS-6111 (b)(2) allows for another option for those people who do not have or accept gov't ID's. It's in the second sentence. This is also detailed in the reg's promulgated by the Pa. State Police. When I made application for the LTCF I used that portion of the reg's to provide additional backround info to the Sheriff's Office. At this point in time the State still cannot mandate the acceptance of its ID cards and deny people their rights to own property or firearms simply because they don't have the ID card. A dealer is in a different situation though, and can make the decision not to make a sale to someone who doesn't meet the dealer's expectations. Admittedly the dealers are in a tight spot and it's tough on them. But if we don't exercise our rights, using the available options provided by law, then we are certain to continue to lose our rights.

[SteveWag]

The question was about transfering a handgun. If done by a dealer, that will require a ATF Form 4473. On that Form the Dealer is required to declare the type of ID presented by the buyer. The "Instructions To Transferor" #1 says ...The buyer must provide a valid goverment-issued photo identifcation to the seller that contains ...name, residence, ...date of birth...... or a combination of goverment ID's. It's a Federal thing! There are no exceptions!! The LTCF is a State thing and the ID requirements for that are not the same as for a Transfer.

Steve Wagner