Negative encounter at Malvern Drivers License Center with Police response.

[XavierBK]

I had to go to a Photo Center to have my license updated so I went out to the Malvern Drivers License Center this morning. I walked in, got my number, and had a seat for a few minutes. When I walked in I didn't notice any signage on the door disallowing firearms, not to say PennDOT has that authority, but I did see signage prohibiting cell phones, smoking, food, and drink. I quickly realized I'd be waiting for a while so I stepped outside to wait. It was around this time I saw the small crossed out pistol sticker on the door. Keep in mind there are several stickers on the door depicting cell phones, food, and drink. They all had a red circle/slash with a white item being pictured. They were also in a line across the door evenly spaced. The gun sticker was not red and white in color, just white, and it was placed below the other stickers nearly behind the door handle. Wish I could've gotten a picture after the fact but I had phone trouble.

After approximately 30 minutes of waiting patiently the first officer arrived on scene. I attempted to grab my phone to record the interaction but it locked up, unfortunately. The first officer of the East Whiteland Township PD to approach was polite, level-headed, and calm. Unfortunately, I didn't get his name or badge number. The conversation went something along these lines.

Officer: Hey, how are you, do you mind stepping over here to talk with me for a sec. I know you're not doing anything wrong and perfectly legal but we got a call and I'd just like to talk to you real quick.
Xavier: Sure thing.

We then walked around the corner, away from the majority of the crowd waiting around.

Officer: Alright, can I get your name?
Xavier: I haven't done anything illegal so I will not identify myself.
Officer: How about just a first name so we can have a conversation?
Xavier: Sure, my name is Xavier.
Officer: Alright Xavier, we just got a call from someone working in the license center and had to come out. We just wanted to let you know the building is posted No Firearms.
Xavier: Well officer, as far as I'm aware PennDOT does not have the authority to prohibit the carry of firearms.

About this time two more officers showed up. Officer Stymiest #53 and Officer Walker #64. I was told Officer Stymiest was the "in-charge" officer on the call. Our brief convo went something like this:

Officer S: Can I get your ID for our report?
Xavier: No, I haven't done anything illegal so I do not need to identify myself.
Officer S: We just need something you write on our reports.
Xavier: My first name is Xavier, you can write that on your reports.
Officer S: Ok, well we just got called here because you can't carry in there, it's posted and it's private property.
Xavier: As I was telling the other officer, PennDOT does not have the authority to prohibit the carry of firearms. I'd also like the name of the employee who called so I can file a private complaint for official oppression.
Officer S: Well the building owner could prohibit that and we don't know who called, it could have been a customer.
Xavier: Well, by all means contact the landowner and find out. I'm sure I'll be long gone by the time you find anything out. And since I have done nothing wrong I will be terminating this interaction now.

I then walked back to where I had been waiting and continued to wait my turn, peering through the door to see what the ticket was up. Officer S. had gotten on the phone with someone, from the bits of the convo I caught he was trying to verify what I had just said about PennDOT having the authority to prohibit guns and then I caught something like, "Ok, yeah, if he goes back in we'll arrest him." After hearing that, being an hour from home and currently unemployed and really not wanting to have to call someone to come bail me out I approached the first officer and informed him that due to all the commotion and me just wanting to get my license updated and be on my way that I would reluctantly lock my firearm in my vehicle in order to carry on unmolested.

Officer W then approached and said something along the lines of, "Well, do you have a LTCF? Because then you'd be concealed and you'll need a LTCF." I responded, telling him that I did and at that point I'd be willing to share that information. So I walked across the parking lot to my vehicle, with Officer W following me. After I put my EDC into my truck and locked it up Officer W asked me for my LTCF and ID. At this point I figured I was skirting the line of carrying in a vehicle, since I had to enter the truck to secure the firearm, and that he had a valid right to request my LTCF so I handed it over. Officer S had pulled his vehicle over to our location by this point and was standing there as well. They both were saying things like, "We know you weren't trying to cause problems, we're just responding to the call," etc. I asked Officer S how to find out who actually called the police so that I could determine if it was a PennDOT employee so I could file a complaint of official oppression. He informed me I'd have to call the department during regular business hours to find out and that he wasn't aware of who made the call. He gave me a page from his notepad with the department name and number as well as his name. I used it to record his badge number as well as Officer W's information.

After this was all said and done I hurried back to the DLC hoping I didn't miss my number. Got back just in time, got my new license and headed home.

[Remington788]

Remember, you are in the State of Pennsylvania, which, during the winter months, could have the official slogan of "State of Emergency" because it seems we are always in one. The current SOE was declared on February 5. Like it or not, open carry requires an LTCF.

PS, You were in Frazer, a village in East Whiteland Township. Malvern is a borough a few miles east. The post office covers many areas though, causing confusion.

Knowing the police in East Whiteland, I would say you had a marginally good/neutral encounter. You were questioned, but not proned out. They never tried to disarm you, run serial numbers. No dogs were shot (there is pet shop next door). They had to respond to the MWAG call. Sounds like they determined you were not a psycho. Still, the center said you can't come in (wrong as that may be), so if you did it would be defiant trespass. You might beat that in court, but the cops did not force the issue, they let you decide what to do.

The cop was giving you a heads up when he said on the phone, "If he goes back in, we will arrest him". He could have said "10-4" and then waited for you to enter, and bust you. I think you did the prudent thing and locked it up.

I do not like to see East Whiteland cars in my rear view mirror. They are known for things like hiding in that shopping center parking lot and pulling people over as they leave restaurants, and setting up endless speed traps.

You certainly do have a valid complaint against PaDOT though. As much as I dislike those police, I see PaDOT as the villain here.

Glad it worked out in the end for you.

[Emptymag]

I'm going to say that he's probably full of shit regarding where the call originated.

Unless it was an anonymous call from a cell phone, the call center would have taken the caller's info and certainly seen the caller's number displayed. If it came from the license center, surely that info would be displayed.

If the call came from an anonymous customer, not so much.

[Remington788]

I'm going to say that he's probably full of shit regarding where the call originated.

Unless it was an anonymous call from a cell phone, the call center would have taken the caller's info and certainly seen the caller's number displayed. If it came from the license center, surely that info would be displayed.

If the call came from an anonymous customer, not so much.

But he isn't going to give the callers info, nor should he, even if he knows it.
If I call the cops because I see a crack dealer hanging out in front of the grade school, I hope the cop will not give my name.

[XavierBK]

My responses in bold.

Remember, you are in the State of Pennsylvania, which, during the winter months, could have the official slogan of "State of Emergency" because it seems we are always in one. The current SOE was declared on February 5. Like it or not, open carry requires an LTCF.

I know about the requirement changes during a SOE and have no problem with that... if an officer states that. I'm not going to just go ahead and give them a reason to force me to identify if they are ignorant of this particular area of law.

PS, You were in Frazer, a village in East Whiteland Township. Malvern is a borough a few miles east. The post office covers many areas though, causing confusion.

The DLC has a Malvern mailing address. I don't know the actual municipality lines.

Knowing the police in East Whiteland, I would say you had a marginally good/neutral encounter. You were questioned, but not proned out. They never tried to disarm you, run serial numbers. No dogs were shot (there is pet shop next door). They had to respond to the MWAG call. Sounds like they determined you were not a psycho. Still, the center said you can't come in (wrong as that may be), so if you did it would be defiant trespass. You might beat that in court, but the cops did not force the issue, they let you decide what to do.

The cop was giving you a heads up when he said on the phone, "If he goes back in, we will arrest him". He could have said "10-4" and then waited for you to enter, and bust you. I think you did the prudent thing and locked it up.

He was standing about 10' away during that conversation, I wasn't meant to hear it. He wasn't giving me a heads up.

I do not like to see East Whiteland cars in my rear view mirror. They are known for things like hiding in that shopping center parking lot and pulling people over as they leave restaurants, and setting up endless speed traps.

You certainly do have a valid complaint against PaDOT though. As much as I dislike those police, I see PaDOT as the villain here.

Glad it worked out in the end for you.

As far as caller info, the first officer said it was a PennDOT employee who called. I'd think as an agent of the state they shouldn't be able to hide behind a 911 call to keep law abiding citizens from using state services. I completely understand not giving out info of a private citizen, which is part of the reason when I contact 911 or non-emergency lines I ask my info not to be broadcast.

[Statkowski]

Anonymous calls aren't all that anonymous since all call centers have Caller I.D., I think, maybe, they should have.

At a minimum, you'll need a copy of the police report to go any further.

[XavierBK]

Anonymous calls aren't all that anonymous since all call centers have Caller I.D., I think, maybe, they should have.

At a minimum, you'll need a copy of the police report to go any further.

I plan on following up Monday to try and find out if it was indeed a PennDOT employee or not.

[jthrelf]

I was just at the Dublin license center today and I didn't notice any signs. I would assume Penn DOT locations are state owned and thus not allowed to restrict legal carrying of firearms. I mean Corbett's picture is up on the wall, it just doesn't seem like private property.

It sucks you had to disarm but you handled it well and you didn't lose your spot in line.

[streaker69]

The cops said something that I wondered about in the past and there's no clear cut answer on it, I believe.

PennDOT would be leasing the building from a private owner, many times the licensing centers are in malls or business center buildings. So who has the authority to post, would the owner of the property have the right to post their buildings even though a state agency is leasing it? Does pre-emption take precedence in that case?

I believe it's murky at best.

[GunLawyer001]

I was just at the Dublin license center today and I didn't notice any signs. I would assume Penn DOT locations are state owned and thus not allowed to restrict legal carrying of firearms. I mean Corbett's picture is up on the wall, it just doesn't seem like private property.

. . .

Preemption applies to any "county, municipality or township". Not the state itself.

There may be an argument that the 2nd Amendment (and PA's own Article 1, Section 21) restricts the ability of the state to infringe or "question" your ability to keep and bear arms. But Section 6120 of the UFA does not.

On a related note, back when the 2nd Amendment was claimed only to restrict Congress, you'll note that Congress banned gun pretty much on every property where they had erected a building, and the entire District of Columbia. Plus, they created "police" regulations without having any inherent police powers.

There's a whole lot of fertile ground for pruning back the federal rules and laws regarding every federal building, Post Office, military reservation, etc. If they can ban guns everyplace they control, then the 2nd Amendment has no teeth.