In defense of the indefensible

[Tokamak]

I know that a lot of people are calling for blood (figuratively) after the incident where PA Patriot got arrested.

I also know that I am a fairly new member and was not involved in the incident and don't have much of a say so in the whole thing.

After reading the first 50 pages of the thread I saw no one who expressed my point of view posting. So, I am putting on my flack jacket and with apologies weighing in.

It disturbs me that this situation has become adversarial. Yes, I know, the LEOs screwed up, but should we be jumping down their throats with threats of losing jobs and law suits or educating?

Here are some things that came to my mind:

1.Police officers have a tough job and are underpaid/under-appreciated.
a.My uncle is a retired police officer and I saw this first hand.

2.Police officers usually have families depending on them.
a.Spouses and kids usually depend on the police officer bread winner.
b.Losing a job not only hurts the person losing it but their families as well.

3.We all should be supporting the police.
a.No not blindly.
b.The time to show support is when someone is in trouble, even if it is their fault.

4.No one on this board can say they never made a mistake.
a.Some one once said “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” and, while I am not a very religious person now adays, that still makes sense to me.

I trust in the goodness of the folks involved and believe that if it comes down to it, they would accept a sincere apology, any actual monetary damages (I don't see any here yet) and a promise to spread the word about what happened to police departments. Of course that decision is totally up to them.

I hope I have not spoken out of turn, but thought that this needed to be said.

As an added thought: Bill Cosby has done more for race relations (IMHO) than Al Sharpton ever did. I'd rather be like the former than the later.

[Swarner793]

I know that a lot of people are calling for blood (figuratively) after the incident where PA Patriot got arrested.

I also know that I am a fairly new member and was not involved in the incident and don't have much of a say so in the whole thing.

After reading the first 50 pages of the thread I saw no one who expressed my point of view posting. So, I am putting on my flack jacket and with apologies weighing in.

It disturbs me that this situation has become adversarial. Yes, I know, the LEOs screwed up, but should we be jumping down their throats with threats of losing jobs and law suits or educating?

Here are some things that came to my mind:

1.Police officers have a tough job and are underpaid/under-appreciated.
a.My uncle is a retired police officer and I saw this first hand.

2.Police officers usually have families depending on them.
a.Spouses and kids usually depend on the police officer bread winner.
b.Losing a job not only hurts the person losing it but their families as well.

3.We all should be supporting the police.
a.No not blindly.
b.The time to show support is when someone is in trouble, even if it is their fault.

4.No one on this board can say they never made a mistake.
a.Some one once said “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” and, while I am not a very religious person now adays, that still makes sense to me.

I trust in the goodness of the folks involved and believe that if it comes down to it, they would accept a sincere apology, any actual monetary damages (I don't see any here yet) and a promise to spread the word about what happened to police departments. Of course that decision is totally up to them.

I hope I have not spoken out of turn, but thought that this needed to be said.

As an added thought: Bill Cosby has done more for race relations (IMHO) than Al Sharpton ever did. I'd rather be like the former than the later.

Absolutely a thoughtful post! Admittedly I am one who, in my mind, was happy for the in your face style of the Patriot and his Merry Band (sorry for the corny title). But, you certainly seem to look at it with compassion and empathy that my Wife oftens say I lack. Thanks for the eloquently presented viewpoint.

Be safe (and well rounded).

Scott

[Tokamak]

Absolutely a thoughtful post! Admittedly I am one who, in my mind, was happy for the in your face style of the Patriot and his Merry Band (sorry for the corny title). But, you certainly seem to look at it with compassion and empathy that my Wife oftens say I lack. Thanks for the eloquently presented viewpoint.

Be safe (and well rounded).

Scott

Funny, my wife says the same thing about me

Thanks for the positive feedback.

[Bmaninmifco]

I know that a lot of people are calling for blood (figuratively) after the incident where PA Patriot got arrested.

I also know that I am a fairly new member and was not involved in the incident and don't have much of a say so in the whole thing.

After reading the first 50 pages of the thread I saw no one who expressed my point of view posting. So, I am putting on my flack jacket and with apologies weighing in.

It disturbs me that this situation has become adversarial. Yes, I know, the LEOs screwed up, but should we be jumping down their throats with threats of losing jobs and law suits or educating?

Here are some things that came to my mind:

1.Police officers have a tough job and are underpaid/under-appreciated.
a.My uncle is a retired police officer and I saw this first hand.

2.Police officers usually have families depending on them.
a.Spouses and kids usually depend on the police officer bread winner.
b.Losing a job not only hurts the person losing it but their families as well.

3.We all should be supporting the police.
a.No not blindly.
b.The time to show support is when someone is in trouble, even if it is their fault.

4.No one on this board can say they never made a mistake.
a.Some one once said “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” and, while I am not a very religious person now adays, that still makes sense to me.

I trust in the goodness of the folks involved and believe that if it comes down to it, they would accept a sincere apology, any actual monetary damages (I don't see any here yet) and a promise to spread the word about what happened to police departments. Of course that decision is totally up to them.

I hope I have not spoken out of turn, but thought that this needed to be said.

As an added thought: Bill Cosby has done more for race relations (IMHO) than Al Sharpton ever did. I'd rather be like the former than the later.

I was not there so I can't answer for anyone else or have the first hand knowledge they do.
Having said that.
1. You will not find many people on this forum who do not agree that LEO's have tough job.
2. The families problem is a fact in any industry if I make a massive mistake in my line of work I lose my job as I'm sure you would as well. It's not only for the LEO's. And I'm sole bread winner in my family.
3. Again most members of this forum do support the LEO's and understand they have an extremely difficult job.
4. I've made mistakes as I'm sure everyone on this board has, but my mistakes have never deprived anyone of their god given rights as written down by the founders of this country.
Not jumping down your throat this is just MHO.
As far as education. It is a shame this had to happen Im sure Pa Patriot and everyone else who was their wishes it has gone down differently unfortunately it didn't. If they education of one or two LEO's can keep this from happening over and over I'm sorry to say it's worth it.
Better that 1 guilty man goes free than 100 innocent go to jail.

[General Geoff]

The officers took oaths to uphold the law, and they blatantly disregarded those oaths on the fateful night of the incident. Breaking an oath is not something I take lightly. I have no pity for those officers, regardless of the eventual legal and civil (and employment) repercussions.

[38SnubFan]

I would agree if the officers involved were willing to admit AT THE SCENE they've never handled such an incident before and are unaware of the laws/procedures to handle such incidents. This was not the case from the evidence I've seen. At least once officer stated he knew the laws regarding Open Carry and still chose to blatantly ignore the written law and play "judge, jury, and executioner" with his own personal opinions/viewpoints.

Under normal circumstances, I would expect a full public apology would suffice. Given the circumstances and still still ongoing "power trip" the Dickson City Borough and Police Department are taking, the only way they'll ever learn a lesson is when it hits them HARD in their back pockets.

I'll agree police officers have a very difficult job. However, they made the mistake of not asking stupid questions, and instead made up their own stupid answers.

Take care,
38SnubFan

[spabula]

No one likes to see someone lose their job when a family has to suffer.. well, I dont anyway, i shouldn't speak for all And I do understand your point but... regardless if your in LE or another profession, if you are not doing your job correctly you should not have that job. If a brick mason can't build a staight wall, then guess what, he won't last long. This should be more so for LEOs since I do not consider this a mear job. This is a lifestyle and a career which should be taken seriously. I very much dislike when I hear people say "well they can't know all the laws". If this is their livelyhood then they should damn well try to learn them all. I also do understand not all police are such as the ones involved in said incident, and I do not have a problem supporting the police, but I do not support stupidity nor abuse of power.

[larrymeyer]

Welcome to the forums but to set the record stright

I know that a lot of people are calling for blood (figuratively) after the incident where PA Patriot got arrested..

I am because I was there and the officer claimed he knew the law, in addition he was offered an open care flier which he refused as he knew the law

It disturbs me that this situation has become adversarial. Yes, I know, the LEOs screwed up, but should we be jumping down their throats with threats of losing jobs and law suits or educating?

It became adversarial on Friday night. Should we just walk away and say thats OK officer your right and we were wrong ??????

1.Police officers have a tough job and are underpaid/under-appreciated.
a.My uncle is a retired police officer and I saw this first hand.

I agree Done that but the job was something ones choice you know that going in

2.Police officers usually have families depending on them.
a.Spouses and kids usually depend on the police officer bread winner.
b.Losing a job not only hurts the person losing it but their families as well.

So does PA and if he lost his job because he was arrested would of an 'I'm Sorry" meant anything ! The police officer didn't think of that when they put handcuffes on him

3.We all should be supporting the police.
a.No not blindly.
b.The time to show support is when someone is in trouble, even if it is their fault.

I do support the police just not right or wrong suppoet me.

4.No one on this board can say they never made a mistake.
a.Some one once said “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” and, while I am not a very religious person now adays, that still makes sense to me.

I've made a lot in my time and had to pay for each and every one including ordering men to their death. Still paying for that every night.

trust in the goodness of the folks involved and believe that if it comes down to it, they would accept a sincere apology, any actual monetary damages (I don't see any here yet) and a promise to spread the word about what happened to police departments. Of course that decision is totally up to them.

As for me I would however according to the Dickson City Chief of Police that won't happen

I hope I have not spoken out of turn, but thought that this needed to be said.

No you didn't and you made some good points +1

[stevieb92]

Just for the record, I was not there at the OCB. Just to add a small comment... if I don't know something pertaining to my job, I don't make it up as I go, I research it and find out the correct answer.

[IV_Warrior]

I don't think mere "education" is going to do anything in this situation. As was stated above, at least one of the officers there claimed to know the law. The chief of police has already stated, in essence, that he feels they acted appropriately, and would do the same in the future. The Supreme Court has already ruled in previous cases that officers acting the way these ones did ISN'T lawful or "part of their obligation to the community". Apparently, education hasn't been happening with respect to open carry and how police should handle it. Unfortunately, it seems a lawsuit is the only thing that's going to get the attention of this department and others, and hopefully the police academies and whatever "on going training" programs are in place.

While I do agree that it's probably not possible for anyone to know EVERY law on the books, officers should at the very least know any laws they're trying to enforce.

I think that we all agree we need to support the cops who take the responsibilities of their job to heart and try hard every day to perform their jobs properly. However, like any group, there's always going to be a bad apple or two that needs weeded out. Sometimes, that gets taken care of internally, sometimes the public needs to force the issue.

For the record, I wasn't there, so all the above is my opinion based on my understanding of how things happened.