Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #11
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    Default Re: Pics put me in research ,why ?

    I did now thank you for the advice and +1
    This seems to be the case . I know cause i called the psp firearms div .

    Quote Originally Posted by Xringshooter View Post
    Did you not read what I originally posted in another thread? The PICS accesses a number of databases, both within and outside of PA. If ANY don't respond it the time allotted, this raises a flag to the PICS operator and they then have to do a rerun on that database. If for some reason that database is down, you go into research. Your info then goes to the people at the Firearms Unit that are tasked with the "investigation" of those that get placed into research. Once everything is cleared up the FFL gets a call from the investigator and if okayed, the FFL gets the approval number. If denied, then the FFL briefs the person what the nest steps are.

    You can also be put into research if anything else flags the system. Maybe someone got into trouble and a clerk somewhere put the wrong info in the wrong place and it accidently got put into your record. That is why anyone going into research gets assigned an investigator to do the search to see why you were flagged. Many times it DOES take the full 15 days. I had one that took 16 days. On day 15 the investigator called me to ask if they could have one more day. Everything was straightened out but it was so late that they needed to go into the next day (day 16) to get the approval number.

    I've had people go into research and an hour later get approved. I had people go into research and got denied 8 days later (due to a transgression that happened in another state years ago and they had to determine if it translated into a prohibiter in PA - it did).

    For both research and denials, the FFL NEVER gets told why it went to research or why someone is denied so it doesn't do any good to ask him, he just doesn't know.
    Quote Originally Posted by rwb1500 View Post
    Were you wearing 5.11 pants?I make you guys all the time.

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Pics put me in research ,why ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Her9852 View Post
    Yes first purchase at about 4pm
    This has happend before about 1 1/2 years ago at my first gun purchase .
    Guy was in the phone for 25 mins .
    My pics always takes about 15-20 mins .
    Last timeout was out in research they waited the full 15 days ,since then I've haven't been put in research and just recently have gotten my nfa items .
    I understand you were delayed before, correct? If that is the case, whatever delayed you the first time is still there, and the PICS operator didn't feel comfortable approving you on the spot. Just another reason to get rid of PICS (because they can delay just because they feel like, unlike NICS who must approve unless they find a prohibiter, or delay for up to 3 days (not 15)), IMO, If you were approved the first time than you will be approved again, once someone with a little more common sense gets a review of your record.

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Pics put me in research ,why ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orlov556 View Post
    I understand you were delayed before, correct? If that is the case, whatever delayed you the first time is still there, and the PICS operator didn't feel comfortable approving you on the spot. Just another reason to get rid of PICS (because they can delay just because they feel like, unlike NICS who must approve unless they find a prohibiter, or delay for up to 3 days (not 15)), IMO, If you were approved the first time than you will be approved again, once someone with a little more common sense gets a review of your record.
    That's false, you won't even get to a human being unless the system trips on some sort of red flag, like an arrest or PFA without a resolution.

    It's not always a good thing to walk away with the gun after 3 days under NICS, because they often can't get the records they need to determine whether you're actually prohibited or not within 3 days. So you have the gun, they eventually figure out that you actually ARE prohibited, and now you're a prohibited person in possession of a firearm and probably some ammunition.

    What happens is this: Under either system, they trip over a record of an arrest, maybe 20 years ago. Maybe there's no hint of what happened to the charges, no evidence of acquittal or conviction or dismissal of charges. Maybe it's a misdemeanor crime of violence that may or may not trigger the Lautenberg prohibition. Hard to say.

    Under either PICS or NICS, they have to send off to the original court to get the disposition records. Anybody who's been in a courthouse knows that's not going to happen within 3 days. So it takes a couple of weeks.

    Under PICS, the prohibited folks are kept out of trouble because they never took the gun home. The non-prohibited folks have to wait a couple of weeks. Definitely a burden in this era of immediate gratification.

    Under NICS, while the conviction records are still not even photocopied and mailed by the court, after 3 days the FFL is permitted to hand over the gun to the guy who is committing a new crime by possessing the gun. (The dealer may or may not choose to take the civil risk of handing the gun over.) But, after a couple of weeks, NICS gets the conviction record and calls the FFL, tells him "don't transfer that gun!" Oops. Now somebody has to get that gun back, and the buyer is vulnerable to the "lying to an FFL" charge as well as the new state and federal charges of being in unlawful possession.

    PICS acts kind of like one of those child safety plugs that some people put on electrical outlets. Some might say, we aren't children, we don't need that kind of nanny state crap, and that's a valid point. But the truth is that a LOT of prohibited persons are genuinely, honestly unaware that they are prohibited. It's complicated, things that happened when they were teens, or during a baffling flurry of courtroom activity during Spring Break that one time...it can be hard to know for sure. That 3-day limit on NICS is not a blessing without a dark side.

    The longer wait times for PICS over NICS are because PICS waits until the records are complete, while NICS allows for transfer (but NOT "approval") after an arbitrary 3 days. As the enemies of PICS are fond of pointing out, PICS and NICS use the same records, so if PICS doesn't have a disposition of a particular charge in the computer, NICS doesn't either.

    We need to fix the UFA to allow your LTCF to bypass the Brady check. That would eliminate these issues for most of us. It's a simple fix, we should get behind it.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    There's merit to carrying your backup mag in a backup gun.

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Pics put me in research ,why ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orlov556 View Post
    I understand you were delayed before, correct? If that is the case, whatever delayed you the first time is still there, and the PICS operator didn't feel comfortable approving you on the spot. Just another reason to get rid of PICS (because they can delay just because they feel like, unlike NICS who must approve unless they find a prohibiter, or delay for up to 3 days (not 15)), IMO, If you were approved the first time than you will be approved again, once someone with a little more common sense gets a review of your record.
    That's what I'm figured that they lack the common sense .
    Called pics and questioned they're methods and spoke to a supervisor .
    This has to stop .

    dunkleburgers is like 45 mins from me and its a hassle to leave and come back .
    I feel like calling them to cancel the background checks for that firearm .
    Because some lazy guy or lady probably uneducated pushed me back for 15 days
    I do buy a lot of firearms and my record hasn't changed . Wtf .
    Last edited by Her9852; November 12th, 2013 at 07:06 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by rwb1500 View Post
    Were you wearing 5.11 pants?I make you guys all the time.

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Pics put me in research ,why ?

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    That's false, you won't even get to a human being unless the system trips on some sort of red flag, like an arrest or PFA without a resolution.

    It's not always a good thing to walk away with the gun after 3 days under NICS, because they often can't get the records they need to determine whether you're actually prohibited or not within 3 days. So you have the gun, they eventually figure out that you actually ARE prohibited, and now you're a prohibited person in possession of a firearm and probably some ammunition.

    What happens is this: Under either system, they trip over a record of an arrest, maybe 20 years ago. Maybe there's no hint of what happened to the charges, no evidence of acquittal or conviction or dismissal of charges. Maybe it's a misdemeanor crime of violence that may or may not trigger the Lautenberg prohibition. Hard to say.

    Under either PICS or NICS, they have to send off to the original court to get the disposition records. Anybody who's been in a courthouse knows that's not going to happen within 3 days. So it takes a couple of weeks.

    Under PICS, the prohibited folks are kept out of trouble because they never took the gun home. The non-prohibited folks have to wait a couple of weeks. Definitely a burden in this era of immediate gratification.

    Under NICS, while the conviction records are still not even photocopied and mailed by the court, after 3 days the FFL is permitted to hand over the gun to the guy who is committing a new crime by possessing the gun. (The dealer may or may not choose to take the civil risk of handing the gun over.) But, after a couple of weeks, NICS gets the conviction record and calls the FFL, tells him "don't transfer that gun!" Oops. Now somebody has to get that gun back, and the buyer is vulnerable to the "lying to an FFL" charge as well as the new state and federal charges of being in unlawful possession.

    PICS acts kind of like one of those child safety plugs that some people put on electrical outlets. Some might say, we aren't children, we don't need that kind of nanny state crap, and that's a valid point. But the truth is that a LOT of prohibited persons are genuinely, honestly unaware that they are prohibited. It's complicated, things that happened when they were teens, or during a baffling flurry of courtroom activity during Spring Break that one time...it can be hard to know for sure. That 3-day limit on NICS is not a blessing without a dark side.

    The longer wait times for PICS over NICS are because PICS waits until the records are complete, while NICS allows for transfer (but NOT "approval") after an arbitrary 3 days. As the enemies of PICS are fond of pointing out, PICS and NICS use the same records, so if PICS doesn't have a disposition of a particular charge in the computer, NICS doesn't either.

    We need to fix the UFA to allow your LTCF to bypass the Brady check. That would eliminate these issues for most of us. It's a simple fix, we should get behind it.
    Where is my "like" button? This above is all valid. I can't be alone in agreeing with this.

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Pics put me in research ,why ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill67 View Post
    Where is my "like" button? This above is all valid. I can't be alone in agreeing with this.
    I did add rep to gunlawyer .
    Quote Originally Posted by rwb1500 View Post
    Were you wearing 5.11 pants?I make you guys all the time.

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Pics put me in research ,why ?

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    ...But the truth is that a LOT of prohibited persons are genuinely, honestly unaware that they are prohibited.
    I have had 3 of these in the past 18 months. One person was prohibited due to something he did 20 yrs ago while in PA. He had moved to DE and lived a perfect life for 20 years. When he was denied he had to think long and hard to remember what it was that he had been convicted of. He's in the process of seeing what he can do to get his record cleared. The 2nd one was denied because he had 3 DUI's in a 5 year period (but did no jail time so he thought he was ok). He honestly did not think those DUIs were a prohibitor. He's been clean for 7 years since the last DUI so I told him that he may need to go a few years more before he tries to get his rights restored. The third (just happened 3 months ago) was prohibited by something that he had done a number of years ago in another state. He also honestly did not think it would prohibit him in PA.

    People buying guns RARELY investigate anything before hand to see if they can buy a gun or not. I'll go out on a limb and say that the vast majority of PA gun owners know NOTHING about the UFA nor have they ever read it. They rely on their buddies for "gun law information" and we know how good that is. I had one person argue with me (long and loud) that there was still a waiting period in PA. I took out my copy of the UFA, handed it to him and told him to find where it said there was a waiting period. He found one thing that said something about a waiting period and showed it to me and said "SEE". I them had him read the rest of it where it said that the waitng period is suspended with the implemention of the new laws. He still didn't want to believe me. Such are some people.
    Ron USAF Ret E-8 FFL01/SOT3 NRA Benefactor Member

  8. #18
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    Thumbs up Re: Pics put me in research ,why ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xringshooter View Post
    I have had 3 of these in the past 18 months. One person was prohibited due to something he did 20 yrs ago while in PA. He had moved to DE and lived a perfect life for 20 years. When he was denied he had to think long and hard to remember what it was that he had been convicted of. He's in the process of seeing what he can do to get his record cleared. The 2nd one was denied because he had 3 DUI's in a 5 year period (but did no jail time so he thought he was ok). He honestly did not think those DUIs were a prohibitor. He's been clean for 7 years since the last DUI so I told him that he may need to go a few years more before he tries to get his rights restored. The third (just happened 3 months ago) was prohibited by something that he had done a number of years ago in another state. He also honestly did not think it would prohibit him in PA.

    People buying guns RARELY investigate anything before hand to see if they can buy a gun or not. I'll go out on a limb and say that the vast majority of PA gun owners know NOTHING about the UFA nor have they ever read it. They rely on their buddies for "gun law information" and we know how good that is. I had one person argue with me (long and loud) that there was still a waiting period in PA. I took out my copy of the UFA, handed it to him and told him to find where it said there was a waiting period. He found one thing that said something about a waiting period and showed it to me and said "SEE". I them had him read the rest of it where it said that the waitng period is suspended with the implemention of the new laws. He still didn't want to believe me. Such are some people.
    Great point on individuals not knowing if they're prohibited ,but I just had the FBI and ATF clear me on 3 form 4s within the past month and a half .
    I have a PDF of that ufa flyer very informative .
    I just think something needs to change like the sop .
    Last edited by Her9852; November 12th, 2013 at 09:24 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by rwb1500 View Post
    Were you wearing 5.11 pants?I make you guys all the time.

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Pics put me in research ,why ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Her9852 View Post
    Great point on individuals not knowing if they're prohibited ,but I just had the FBI and ATF clear me on 3 form 4s within the past month and a half .
    I have a PDF of that ufa flyer very informative .
    I just think something needs to change like the sop .
    The problem with this is that you don't know what all the BATFE checks when they get the Form 4. It is possible that if they run just a NICS check, whatever may flag you in PICS doesn't show up on the NICS OR it does and the BATFE person handling your Form 4 does the further investigation and knows that it is not a prohibitor. Also, take into account how long it takes to get your paperwork back (months versus 15 days max for PICS). No one questions or complains that it takes months to have a Form 4 to go through the system and my guess is that the BATFE has as much or better computer systems as PICS has.
    Ron USAF Ret E-8 FFL01/SOT3 NRA Benefactor Member

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Pics put me in research ,why ?

    Right up front, for those of you who don't know me, I will tell you that I 'oppose' the state run PICS system. I have been involved with this system, both politically and operationally, since its' inception. It is 'not' run well! Don't believe me ask the NSSF (National Shooting Sports Foundation).

    In this thread I see some have posted about the lack of knowledge regarding gun owners & the UFA and that is certainly true. I offer that there is a similar lack of knowledge regarding what PICS does and does 'not' do that also exists. It is important to realize that PICS operates 'only' through the approval of the federal government and the NICS system. Without the agreement with them as a POC (Point of Contact) state the PICS is rendered moot.

    For PICS to operate within this agreement enabling legislation was crafted in 1995 - ACT 17. Subsequent to the passage of this legislation numerous revisions were made to the sale of firearms law. The PICS system can 'ONLY' operate within the powers and authority granted in the law-NOTHING ELSE is legitimate and legal. Yet the PSP flaunt this authority from the legislature.

    § 6111_F3_LTCF & Law Enforcement bypass Instant Check-Ignored
    § 6111_B7_Temporary Delays are 'ONLY' for purposes of enforcing 18 United States Code § 922(d)(9), (g)(1) and (s)(1)-Like the Commerce Clause-Expanded beyond scope
    § 6111.4. Registration of Firearms-Ignored
    § 6105_d_Exemption.--A person who has been convicted of a crime specified in subsection (a) or (b) or a person whose conduct meets the criteria in subsection (c)(1), (2), (5), (7) or (9) may make application to the court of common pleas of the county where the principal residence of the applicant is situated for relief from the disability imposed by this section upon the possession, transfer or control of a firearm. The court shall grant such relief if it determines that any of the following apply:
    (1) The conviction has been vacated under circumstances where all appeals have been exhausted or where the right to appeal has expired.-Ignored
    § 6109_d_Sheriff to conduct investigation.--The sheriff to whom the application is made shall:
    (5) conduct a criminal background, juvenile delinquency and mental health check following the procedures set forth in section 6111 (relating to sale or transfer of firearms)-PICS uses the language above to interfere in the LTCF approval process.
    § 6109_g_Grant or denial of license.--If the sheriff refuses to issue a license, the sheriff shall notify the applicant in writing of the refusal and the specific reasons. The notice shall be sent by certified mail to the applicant at the address set forth in the application. PICS refuses to identify the denied permit applicant the information mandated in this section as part of the LTCF approval process.

    I could go on and on but the gist of this is that the law specifies agency conduct and 'not' flights of fancy or bureaucratic stubbornness. The law is the law!

    Most importantly it is outrageous that we should have to pay a fee to exercise our constitutional rights. The PA PICS system requires a fee to operate in clear violation of Supreme Court decision – Murdoch v. U.S. in that you ‘cannot’ pay a fee to exercise a right. This fee will 'never' go down and is similar in concept to ‘Property Taxes’! PA citizens should not suffer the constant operational failures either. Maybe that’s why PA is one of only thirteen remaining, full POC, states that still use the state Point Of Contact option and eight remaining ‘partial’ POC states (‘only’ for concealed carry licenses).

    There are many other factors here and I could go on for hours about the number of FFL dealers who have gone out of business because of PSP failing to properly record submitted fees and a host of other reasons. It is up to you to trust that I bring this information to you, past and present, in the hopes you will realize that the retention of the PICS system is a constitutional insult and an operational headache as well as being redundant.

    There are additional reasons to consider moving to the NICS system-see below:
    1. A more accurate search facilitated based on the direct entry of descriptive data by the transaction originator, thereby increasing data integrity.
    2. The ability to retrieve NICS background check results 24/7.
    3. The ability to retrieve all checks initiated at the NICS Contracted Call Centers or via the NICS E-Check.
    4. The ability to print completed NICS background check search requests.
    5. Increased usability for the hearing and speech impaired.
    6. The availability of messages regarding the NICS operational status.
    7. Added customer protection against identity theft.
    8. Added safeguard against theft of license number and codeword.
    9. Multiple court facilities for challenges throughout PA instead of the financial waste of dragging your attorney to Harrisburg (only!).
    10. The list goes on . . .


    IF you (any individual) want this program I implore you to do more research before making a decision that 'will' in the long run have disastrous effect on our rights. It's your choice and we respect that 'but' we are committed to seeing this PICS system shut down and can document our reasoning. This is why so many states do 'not' run their own systems and many PA legislators support this. The 'ONLY' hang up is leadership (specifically House Judiciary Committee) and the coming election year and gun owners silence. Decide what you want but please base it on the facts as the consequences are significant!

    Please support HB 921. Thank you!

    Kim Stolfer, President
    Firearms Owners Against Crime

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