Northern Chester County Sportsmen’s Club

[Shadowflag]

For fucks sake, this is the 4th thread you have posted this in!

Cross-Posting (5 points, Expires in 1 month)
We ask that no one post the same thread, topic, classified ad, etc. in multiple locations on the site, as all that does is create clutter, confusion, and divergent discussions on the same topic. In the past this was considered a spam infraction, but in the interests of clarification we've decided to create a separate infraction for this. Note that while this is only a 5 point infraction, the more you cross-post a topic, the more infractions you will receive. For example, if you post a topic twice, you will receive one infraction for the duplicate; if you post a topic 5 times, you will receive 4 infractions. If you feel it absolutely necessary or important to cross-post for some reason, please contact the staff in advance of posting, so that the request can be reviewed.

Hello interested parties,

The “Advisory” below is an addendum to my original post, which was posted on the Elverson Rod and Gun Club thread, post #4. This may be construed as schooling for “attacking the messenger”.

For those looking for ranges, I missed Tri-Town Gun Club in Honeybrook and Morgantown Gun Club on Hwy 10 south of Hwy 23.

It was not my intention to wade into the NCCSC fracas. However, I have found these threads to be a useful case study for my students.

In response to Peter’s comment on hearsay post #10 Elverson Rod and Gun Club thread, when information is obtained from a known trusted source, it is not typically considered hearsay. Otherwise, reason dictates, most information on the news would be considered hearsay.

Advisory:
I believe this posting is only to advise citizens to avoid Northern Chester County Sportsman’s Club. It appears from reading threads about NCCSC that it’s currently, very poorly managed. The club President and remaining board seem to have what appears to be a problem. Posted on NCCSC thread #66 now states that the club President and board have started a lawsuit against their own club Membership Secretary. Does this sound like a well managed club, or one people should avoid?

Reading these threads indicate to this reader, a serious conflict of interest by the instructors. If indeed, the instructors are being paid for classes, there is a violation of federal tax law for non-profits. Instead of supporting the end of instruction to maintain tax-exempt status, the club President and board are continuing support of the instructors at the expense of the membership. This apparent symbiotic relationship allows instructors to continue their for-profit money making. It appears that the instructors also hold appointed positions at the club, such as “sergeant at arms”, “range safety officer(s)” or “chief range safety officer” which clearly indicates to me, a conflict of interest. Further still, it appears that these instructors are intimidating members who dissent at meetings or elsewhere.

I believe that the club President as well as remaining board members and instructors are aware of this for-profit prohibition, but are willfully choosing to continue on their current path citing it is good for the membership. The Club’s tax exempt status definitely appears to be at risk due to the above mentioned factors, which are in contradiction to non-profit Federal Law. This choice of inaction by the club President and remaining board may result in very large taxes, interest, and penalties.

With a few strokes of a keyboard, you can find the link to tax-exempt restrictions regarding 501 (c) (7) organizations. I believe this “Advisory” should continue in effect until such time as the club President, remaining board members, appointed board members, trustees etc. are removed from office and for profit instruction is ended. My research indicates an election in November. I do not rely on hearsay, I use research and deductive reasoning.

[TDSjr]

Shadow

I had to rep you on the post! Thank you. NCCSC is not perfect but the members are doing their best to make the club the best it can be. There are numerous volunteers that pitch in, help out and make the club a good place to shoot.

We're working out the differences that need to be addressed and I'm hoping we can eventually heal the club. There have been numerous postings and much of the information has been hearsay, innuendo, mis-statement of facts, etc. There may be things that are in question but I believe honest answers should be expected by everyone.

I hope to see you at the Raffle next week and wish you luck with all the drawings and games!

[HenrikGeorge124]

Shadow

I had to rep you on the post! Thank you. NCCSC is not perfect but the members are doing their best to make the club the best it can be. There are numerous volunteers that pitch in, help out and make the club a good place to shoot.

We're working out the differences that need to be addressed and I'm hoping we can eventually heal the club. There have been numerous postings and much of the information has been hearsay, innuendo, mis-statement of facts, etc. There may be things that are in question but I believe honest answers should be expected by everyone.

I hope to see you at the Raffle next week and wish you luck with all the drawings and games!

Hello again Tom,
I for one have never said the club is not a great place. How are the differences being worked out?

It is a fact that the board is suing the Membership Secretary.

t is a fact that the bylaws have been violated by the board.

It is a fact that several members sent certified letters to the board asking for specific documents and never received a reply.

It is a fact that the board lied in its letter presenting the charges against the Membership Secretary.

It is a fact that the authorization to purchase two golf carts does not appear in any meeting minutes.

It is a fact that the membership was never given the opportunity to discuss or vote on spending $6,000 to retain a lawyer.

It is a fact that the membership was never given the opportunity to discuss or vote on filing a lawsuit against the Membership Secretary.

It is a fact that the club does not have tax exempt status and has not had it for a number of years.

It is a fact that the President has neglected to make sure Federal filings were done.

It is a fact that the President has not filed the proper reports with the state.

It is a fact that six months of meeting minutes from 2013 are still not available for members to read.

It is a fact that the board introduced new range rules without giving the members an opportunity to discuss or vote on them.

It is a fact that two board members resigned in disgust with the actions of the other board members.

Would you care to point out which comment is hearsay, innuendo or a mis-statement of facts?

Anyone that wants to read the facts about what has been going on at NCCSC can go to this thread http://forum.pafoa.org/chester-16/261375-nccsc.html, where I have posted a large amount of factual information.

You once said you were not a board member or trustee. Do you contribute to the club in any other official or semi-official capacity that everyone reading this might be interested in hearing about?

This is one more example of people who are affiliated with the board making statements without providing any evidence to back up their claims. Everything I have posted as fact can be easily documented or at least it can be proven that the documents do not exist.

[TDSjr]

Henrik

Hello again Tom,
I for one have never said the club is not a great place. How are the differences being worked out? ~My response- Thank you we can agree on something. That is progress for both of us.

It is a fact that the board is suing the Membership Secretary. ~ My response- You know the answer to this question.

t is a fact that the bylaws have been violated by the board. ~ My response- Not to my knowledge but again that's my opinion.

It is a fact that several members sent certified letters to the board asking for specific documents and never received a reply. ~ My response- I had heard that less than a half dozen out of ~750 members have done this. My math skills are not spectacular. What would you say is that ratio of unhappy customers?

It is a fact that the board lied in its letter presenting the charges against the Membership Secretary. ~My response- Your opinion is I believe yes and my opinion is a no

It is a fact that the authorization to purchase two golf carts does not appear in any meeting minutes. ~ My response- I have to disagree with you on this one.

It is a fact that the membership was never given the opportunity to discuss or vote on spending $6,000 to retain a lawyer. My response- This should be a board question but considering these posts and the other issues we are having is that it was needed to respond to the original actions taken by the former membership secretary.

It is a fact that the membership was never given the opportunity to discuss or vote on filing a lawsuit against the Membership Secretary. ~My response- Board level question.

It is a fact that the club does not have tax exempt status and has not had it for a number of years. ~My response- Board level question.

It is a fact that the President has neglected to make sure Federal filings were done. ~My response- Board level question.

It is a fact that the President has not filed the proper reports with the state. ~My response- Board level question.

It is a fact that six months of meeting minutes from 2013 are still not available for members to read. ~My response -Board level question

It is a fact that the board introduced new range rules without giving the members an opportunity to discuss or vote on them. ~My response- Have you read the new rules? Anything that does not let you enjoy the range in a safe manner?

It is a fact that two board members resigned in disgust with the actions of the other board members. ~My response- Yes, we lost two individuals that contributed to the club in a very positive way.

Would you care to point out which comment is hearsay, innuendo or a mis-statement of facts? ~My response- There is a proper forum/place to have that conversation and this is not it.

Anyone that wants to read the facts about what has been going on at NCCSC can go to this thread http://forum.pafoa.org/chester-16/261375-nccsc.html, where I have posted a large amount of factual information.

You once said you were not a board member or trustee. Do you contribute to the club in any other official or semi-official capacity that everyone reading this might be interested in hearing about? ~My response- I am not now nor have I ever been a member of the board or a trustee. You knew that but were attempting to infer I was somehow a member of the board or a trustee.

I volunteer my time and effort to the club. I'm there for work days, events, trap shoots and anything else needed. Since when is this a bad thing? You've seen me at these events and my shirt is also high-vis yellow not grey.

This is one more example of people who are affiliated with the board making statements without providing any evidence to back up their claims. Everything I have posted as fact can be easily documented or at least it can be proven that the documents do not exist.


My response- You know I'm not a trustee or a board member. Will I consider running for a position. I've heard individuals ask me too. If my involvement can bridge the gap in the club I'll do it. If me reaching out to the disenfranchised I will. If me associating with the board is a negative how is that? I want to work with the current board, the new board or cardboard if it helps the club.

TDSjr

[HenrikGeorge124]

Henrik

Hello again Tom,
I for one have never said the club is not a great place. How are the differences being worked out? ~My response- Thank you we can agree on something. That is progress for both of us.

It is a fact that the board is suing the Membership Secretary. ~ My response- You know the answer to this question.

t is a fact that the bylaws have been violated by the board. ~ My response- Not to my knowledge but again that's my opinion.

It is a fact that several members sent certified letters to the board asking for specific documents and never received a reply. ~ My response- I had heard that less than a half dozen out of ~750 members have done this. My math skills are not spectacular. What would you say is that ratio of unhappy customers?

It is a fact that the board lied in its letter presenting the charges against the Membership Secretary. ~My response- Your opinion is I believe yes and my opinion is a no

It is a fact that the authorization to purchase two golf carts does not appear in any meeting minutes. ~ My response- I have to disagree with you on this one.

It is a fact that the membership was never given the opportunity to discuss or vote on spending $6,000 to retain a lawyer. My response- This should be a board question but considering these posts and the other issues we are having is that it was needed to respond to the original actions taken by the former membership secretary.

It is a fact that the membership was never given the opportunity to discuss or vote on filing a lawsuit against the Membership Secretary. ~My response- Board level question.

It is a fact that the club does not have tax exempt status and has not had it for a number of years. ~My response- Board level question.

It is a fact that the President has neglected to make sure Federal filings were done. ~My response- Board level question.

It is a fact that the President has not filed the proper reports with the state. ~My response- Board level question.

It is a fact that six months of meeting minutes from 2013 are still not available for members to read. ~My response -Board level question

It is a fact that the board introduced new range rules without giving the members an opportunity to discuss or vote on them. ~My response- Have you read the new rules? Anything that does not let you enjoy the range in a safe manner?

It is a fact that two board members resigned in disgust with the actions of the other board members. ~My response- Yes, we lost two individuals that contributed to the club in a very positive way.

Would you care to point out which comment is hearsay, innuendo or a mis-statement of facts? ~My response- There is a proper forum/place to have that conversation and this is not it.

Anyone that wants to read the facts about what has been going on at NCCSC can go to this thread http://forum.pafoa.org/chester-16/261375-nccsc.html, where I have posted a large amount of factual information.

You once said you were not a board member or trustee. Do you contribute to the club in any other official or semi-official capacity that everyone reading this might be interested in hearing about? ~My response- I am not now nor have I ever been a member of the board or a trustee. You knew that but were attempting to infer I was somehow a member of the board or a trustee.

I volunteer my time and effort to the club. I'm there for work days, events, trap shoots and anything else needed. Since when is this a bad thing? You've seen me at these events and my shirt is also high-vis yellow not grey.

This is one more example of people who are affiliated with the board making statements without providing any evidence to back up their claims. Everything I have posted as fact can be easily documented or at least it can be proven that the documents do not exist.


My response- You know I'm not a trustee or a board member. Will I consider running for a position. I've heard individuals ask me too. If my involvement can bridge the gap in the club I'll do it. If me reaching out to the disenfranchised I will. If me associating with the board is a negative how is that? I want to work with the current board, the new board or cardboard if it helps the club.

TDSjr

Tom,
Your response is rather hard to read, you seem to have mistaken my statements of fact as questions.

I have spelled out the bylaw violations several times. Read the bylaws and look at what has been done. It is not subjective.

The law requires that the documents are turned over to anyone requesting them in a timely fashion even if only one member makes the request. The board never even responded to the requests!

Did the club get charged 80% of the value of the propane left in the Amerigas tanks? The board knew they would get reimbursed for it before the list of charges was drawn up against the Membership Secretary.

Show everyone here the meeting minutes where the golf cart purchase was approved and I will retract this statement.

The point is that the rules were changed without being discussed or voted on.
There are no board level questions! The membership has the right to know about, discuss and vote on everything that is going on within their club. That is the way it has always been. The President even thought they should have the right to vote on whether the club purchased stone for the driveway. Everyone can read at the April meeting minutes if you don’t believe me.
The quote below is copied directly from those minutes.

“*Delivery of Stone-Steve-explained need for stone motion to purchase a couple loades of stone and 2nd all were in favor – John said “he was just going to get it – he wasn’t going to take it to the membership fo a vote” “Steve said I know John but we operate like a club so we vote on things””

I guess you think the proper place for the discussion is at a board meeting or regular meeting with the Barr brothers lurking around looking to throw out anyone who is a problem. If what I have posted are mis-statements and innuendo it should be very easy to rebut everything. The fact that no one has done so speaks volumes.

I had no intention of insinuating that you were a board member. I asked if you contributed to the club in any other official or semi-official capacity because I was told that you were on the committee created by the board (contrary to the bylaws) to investigate and punish anyone it feels was involved in sending out the letter and email. If that is not the case please accept my apology. I did not make an accusation, I simply asked a question.

If the board was doing everything the way things should be done there would be no disenfranchised members.

[TDSjr]

Henrik

I'm going to state things from my perspective. I believe you and I can have a conversation where we can speak and agree to disagree on certain topics. I believe this is one area where we may never agree going forward but I respect your right to be heard. You have your view of events and I have mine. In a public forum, you have the option to be heard and I have the option to not agree with the facts you present. That is an honest and unpretentious response.

I am available at NCCSC the nights we shoot trap, the nights we have the indoor shoots, workdays, events we hold for members or the public or any other event members may be in attendance at the club. (again honest response) I'm not sure what nights the prowlers are around but I've never had issues with those you mentioned. Perhaps we can hold a prowlers free night to discuss things. (sarcasm was meant)

Feel free to ask for me. Most of the folks that volunteer know me, I believe we have established you know who I am.

We just held our largest event of the year and it was a tremendous success for the club, it's members that attended and all involved. There was no drama, no fanfare just happy faces all around. The club raffled off the best guns, prizes, items we could find. It was well organized and well thought out. We are currently working on plans for the upcoming events and we have heard several requests for another round of shooting games that were available the day of the raffle. Get this....Not a single volunteer was yelled at or humiliated by anyone! A first from what I hear but a shock it happened to me in the past.

I'm going to choose to promote the good that is happening at NCCSC. My intentions are to let members and potentially future members know what the club has to offer. Folks on this forum are free to formulate their own opinion but either way I'm stepping back from the postings here.

I'm going to put my efforts into repairing what can be repaired at the club. Moving forward with those that wish to work with us in healing and continuing to move forward. In case you haven't been around the grounds lately, there have been lots of questions being asked by the board, trustees and members, What can we do better? What would you like to see?

It's your choice to join us and enjoy what we have or move on to other clubs or not participate at NCCSC. Free will and all that. Whatever options you may choose I wish you well in your endeavors.

Respectfully

TDSjr