Selling to someone in DC

[Grey Bearded One]

Last I heard, there is only one FFL in DC.

[tl_3237]

Don't know if they would assist a private sale but here is a VA shop that seems to have the wherewithal to do a DC sale through a DC transfer agent:

http://dcgunworks.com/

[Orlov556]

OK it is a handgun.. enough said yep it has to go to DC... to the only FFL that does transfers (CS i think is the name of the guy i know his last name in Sykes)... and your buyer needs to jump thru a whole bunch of hoops on his end for registration... i would walk away..no..run away..I am sure you can find buyer right here in PA..

[MikeinPhilly]

OK it is a handgun.. enough said yep it has to go to DC... to the only FFL that does transfers (CS i think is the name of the guy i know his last name in Sykes)... and your buyer needs to jump thru a whole bunch of hoops on his end for registration... i would walk away..no..run away..I am sure you can find buyer right here in PA..

Yeah I am sure I can find a buyer in PA, the only reason I was considering it was because I was going to be in Va over the holiday weekend.

On a side note though, while researching if I could sell it to him I read all the hoops the poor people of DC have to jump through and all I can say is I am glad I live in PA.

[Xringshooter]

The reason I ask is because I know many FFLs don’t like to get into guess work, and they are REQUIRED to know the laws for ALL of the states (and DC), so they dealer must know PA law(which doesn’t say anything about this case, beyond the fact that out of state must go thru FFL) and DC law, which is where it gets tricky. As a matter of fact, I believe there is only ONE FFL in DC.

Actually a FFL is NOT REQUIRED (emphasis on the "required") to know the firearms laws of all the states in the US. An FFL needs to know the federal firearms laws and the firearms laws of the state where he does business. It is a bonus if the FFL happens to know the laws of other states. Most FFL's will typically learn (or be familiar with) the firearms laws of the states that adjoin the state in which they do business.

In all actuality, it is the buyer of the gun that is required to know the gun laws of their state of residence so they know if what they want to do is legal.

A true resident of D.C. (not a suburb that is in MD or VA) can go to any FFL in any state of the union and purchase a long gun, as long as the purchase is allowed in both the state of the purchase and in D.C. It if doesn't meet these sets of laws the sale can't happen.

If the resident of D.C. wants to buy a handgun from a FFL outside of D.C., he must meet all the requirements of D.C. and the state where the FFL is and the FFL that he is buying the handgun from must ship it to a FFL in D.C. for the buyer to actually take possession (which, as of now he is limited to only one FFL in D.C.)

[Grey Bearded One]

If the resident of D.C. wants to buy a handgun from a FFL outside of D.C., he must meet all the requirements of D.C. and the state where the FFL

Not really because the transaction is not happening in the first state. The first FFL just boxes up the gun and ships it to the receiving FFL. On paper it is the same as if the receiving FFL is getting a gun from a wholesaler. Although, I do understand that there are a couple states where you can't touch a gun without an ID card but even then, it is simply a matter of having the gun shipped to the receiving dealer.

As for knowing the laws, FFLs are not required to know the laws all 50 states but they have no excuse for not knowing said laws since ATF sends them a publication with the laws of all 50 states, DC, and territories and possessions. So if a question arises, an FFL can never say (truthfully), "I wasn't sure and didn't know where to look."

[tl_3237]

Actually a FFL is NOT REQUIRED (emphasis on the "required") to know the firearms laws of all the states in the US. An FFL needs to know the federal firearms laws and the firearms laws of the state where he does business. It is a bonus if the FFL happens to know the laws of other states. Most FFL's will typically learn (or be familiar with) the firearms laws of the states that adjoin the state in which they do business.

In all actuality, it is the buyer of the gun that is required to know the gun laws of their state of residence so they know if what they want to do is legal.

A true resident of D.C. (not a suburb that is in MD or VA) can go to any FFL in any state of the union and purchase a long gun, as long as the purchase is allowed in both the state of the purchase and in D.C. It if doesn't meet these sets of laws the sale can't happen.

If the resident of D.C. wants to buy a handgun from a FFL outside of D.C., he must meet all the requirements of D.C. and the state where the FFL is and the FFL that he is buying the handgun from must ship it to a FFL in D.C. for the buyer to actually take possession (which, as of now he is limited to only one FFL in D.C.)

But an FFL is presumed to be aware of the laws of the transferee's state. A contravening transfer would be a prima facie violation by the FFL subject to rebuttal. An FFL wold be ill-advised to consummate the transfer without actual knowledge of conformance with the transferee's state's laws.

18 USC 922(b)
It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver-

(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee's place of business is located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States),

27 CFR § 478.96 Out-of-State and mail order
sales.

(c) (1) A licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, or licensed dealer may sell
or deliver a rifle or shotgun, and a licensed
collector may sell or deliver a rifle or shotgun
that is a curio or relic to a nonlicensed
resident of a State other than the State in
which the licensee's place of business is
located if—
(i) The purchaser meets with the
licensee in person at the licensee's
premises to accomplish the transfer,
sale, and delivery of the rifle or shotgun;
(ii) The licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, or licensed dealer
complies with the provisions of
§ 478.102;
(iii) The purchaser furnishes to the
licensed importer, licensed manufacturer,
or licensed dealer the firearms
transaction record, Form 4473, required
by § 478.124; and
(iv) The sale, delivery, and receipt
of the rifle or shotgun fully comply
with the legal conditions of sale in
both such States.
(2) For purposes of paragraph (c) of
this section, any licensed manufacturer,
licensed importer, or licensed dealer is
presumed, in the absence of evidence
to the contrary, to have had actual
knowledge of the State laws and published
ordinances of both such States.

[Xringshooter]

But an FFL is presumed to be aware of the laws of the transferee's state. A contravening transfer would be a prima facie violation by the FFL subject to rebuttal. An FFL wold be ill-advised to consummate the transfer without actual knowledge of conformance with the transferee's state's laws.

I have no argument about this. I was just commenting on the statement that we are REQUIRED to know the laws of all 50 states, D.C. and US territories. As long as I know where to find the laws for the different states then if I have a question I can go to that reference to answer my questions.

Also, the manual that the ATF "gives" to FFL's is not up to date and the ATF does not send out updates to the laws if they change. If I need info about a states laws, I typically start with the DOJ or AG website of the state and search from there. I had a question about shipping a handgun to CA and didn't really get an answer about it from the CA DOJ site, so I emailed them and they actually called me to answer my questions (it dealt with a DA revolver and something another forum member told me about how to get a non allowed gun into the state - his answer was against CA law).

And I would argue about having to meet the laws of both states on transferring a gun. Although highly unlikely, it is possible that a person who recently moved to PA could have a gun that is not legal in PA, but since there is no registration in PA no one knows about it (but possibly the owner). Then he brings it to the FFL to ship to a out of state person. To ship it the FFL has to enter it into his bound book. If the FFL knows that it is an illegal gun (because he knows the laws) he could not take possession of it to ship it because it is against the law to possess that gun. I know this scenerio may seem far fetched, but I have seen some odd things happen in the time I have held a FFL (since 1989 in 3 different states).

[Armor Snail]

From my research that's what I thought but wanted to make sure. Thanks everyone for their replies.

Orlov556- it's a HK P30.

Looks like the P30 is not on the DC approved list of handguns eligible for registration also. Funny as most all of their other offerings are approved.

http://mpdc.dc.gov/sites/default/fil...gistration.pdf

[Orlov556]

I have no argument about this. I was just commenting on the statement that we are REQUIRED to know the laws of all 50 states, D.C. and US territories. As long as I know where to find the laws for the different states then if I have a question I can go to that reference to answer my questions.

Also, the manual that the ATF "gives" to FFL's is not up to date and the ATF does not send out updates to the laws if they change. If I need info about a states laws, I typically start with the DOJ or AG website of the state and search from there. I had a question about shipping a handgun to CA and didn't really get an answer about it from the CA DOJ site, so I emailed them and they actually called me to answer my questions (it dealt with a DA revolver and something another forum member told me about how to get a non allowed gun into the state - his answer was against CA law).

And I would argue about having to meet the laws of both states on transferring a gun. Although highly unlikely, it is possible that a person who recently moved to PA could have a gun that is not legal in PA, but since there is no registration in PA no one knows about it (but possibly the owner). Then he brings it to the FFL to ship to a out of state person. To ship it the FFL has to enter it into his bound book. If the FFL knows that it is an illegal gun (because he knows the laws) he could not take possession of it to ship it because it is against the law to possess that gun. I know this scenerio may seem far fetched, but I have seen some odd things happen in the time I have held a FFL (since 1989 in 3 different states).

What kinds of guns are illegal in PA but legal elsewhere? am i missing something? Please let me know with all of those impressive years of experience as an FFL...