Dealing with an unsafe family member

[scruff]

Anyone else have this problem? My dad has been shooting all his life, but has no concept of modern safety procedures, i.e. Jeff Cooper’s rules. Lately, he’s been pocket carrying a Bond Arms Derringer w/o a holster. He likes to pull his gun out of his pocket for show-and-tell when the family gets together, and he has a total lack of muzzle discipline, whether in the house or at the range.

We had a family get-together last night. He pulled it out in the living room, came close to sweeping the kids, and then held it in his hand for a couple of minutes with the muzzle pointed at his groin & thigh, before he put it back in his pocket. I didn’t say anything that time. Later, after dinner, he brought both the .22 mag and .45 Derringers out to the dining room, I guess to show me the difference between the two. He had unloaded them downstairs. When he picked them up and had them pointing into the living room, I said “please don’t point those at the kids.” He flew off the handle, whipped them open to show me they were empty, protested that he wasn’t pointing them at the kids, called me a sissy or some such thing, and said that he has been shooting safely all of his life (forgot to mention the ND in his basement ). Without raising my voice, I told him that lots of people have been shot with “empty” guns, that things have changed over the years, that these are the rules that everyone now agrees on – instructors, clubs, matches, everywhere. That people make mistakes, they have brain farts, accidents happen, but the rules are designed to account for that. He stormed off. A couple of family members thanked me for saying something and said that his past behavior has made them nervous. He did come back out later, and we didn’t discuss it any further.

I’m at a loss at how to handle this. I’ve asked him before to watch his muzzle, and the same thing happens, although this was the worst blow-up yet. It's never happened in front of the whole family before, but there have been incidents at past family gatherings that I probably should have addressed then. I cut him a lot more slack than I would a stranger at the range, because I don’t want to get into these arguments. But when it comes to my kids and my brother’s kids, I don't want to let it slide. Not sure how to handle this. Don’t want to stop seeing him, don’t want to put the kids in danger, don’t know how I can get him to understand that what he’s doing is dangerous and makes other people nervous.

[Breadman03]

He's going to need to be safe. (bold that period for emphasis)

I think that you handled it about as well as one can.

[bogey1]

Shoot him in the foot with a subsonic .22.... See dad, i thought it was unloaded.. You could of done that to me at dinner the other day
In all seriousness, I have no clue what to do besides confronting him and asking him not to play with his guns, at least when my kids and myself are around anyway. Is he a war vet?

[JoshIronshaft]

Sounds like a really tough position because it sounds like you respect your father. I have a pretty open relationship with my dad and I won't hesitate to tell him when he is on the wrong with firearm safety (and he respects me because I care about safety) but that is a different situation. I think you really need to talk to him one on one about it. It might lesson the embarrassment of being lectured by his son in front of other family members. Give him a book to read on it, like the art of the modern day gun slinger.

[scruff]

Shoot him in the foot with a subsonic .22.... See dad, i thought it was unloaded.. You could of done that to me at dinner the other day
In all seriousness, I have no clue what to do besides confronting him and asking him not to play with his guns, at least when my kids and myself are around anyway. Is he a war vet?

No, he's not a vet.

I'd love to get him to a Fire Institute 1-day pistol class at our club, but I can't just say "Dad, you're dangerous, you need a class." I'm wondering if I could get him to go with me if my brother or stepmother were going too - make it a family thing.

[RebelRaider5]

The Utah Permit class covers some basic safety measures right? If he doesn't have a Utah permit maybe purchase a seat for him at a Utah Class as a present.

Or if you don't have a Utah permit yourself maybe buy two and ask him to go since "you don't want to go by yourself".

[bamboomaster]

You did everything right, except for one thing: "Praise in public and scold in private".

I realize you were at your wits end the second time and were protecting everyone in the family from a ND where nobody wins and a lot worse could happen. In emergent situations such as this, it's never about winning an argument, it's about safety and staying alive.

Whoever thought they'd use the remark "I just want to get home safely tonight" when visiting a grandparent?

I'd venture a guess that he was angry because he was rightly castigated by you, but in public - a loss of face for him.

Just tell him you love him (in private, if you think the remark may embarrass him or you) and that you made a mistake by not previously discussing your concern with him in private. Ask him, "What do you think you should do to solve this problem?" If he fails to recognize that it is indeed his problem (taking ownership of the problem) and there are multiple SIMPLE solutions, then you have to have a "Come to Jesus" conversation with him.

Here's a start on that conversation.

How is sweeping folks (children included) in a room any different than leaving tonight's meds on a bathroom counter? Young kids think "Oooh, CANDY." Teenagers think "Oooh, DRUGS."

This is a discussion I have had with a grandparent (in private), and he was mortified that as smart and experienced as he was (worked on the Atlas rocket project to get us into space, invented ink-jet technology for IBM to get us buying ink-jet printer cartridges), he didn't think of the possible risks to others. And he changed his behavior not because of any threat I made about his ever seeing the grandchildren, but because he manned-up in a nanosecond once he realized what unintended consequences could have resulted from his behavior in a family setting that included folks from age 2 to 78.

If he doesn't change the way he handles firearms in a group setting, save yourself and the kids. Skype is a poor substitute for hugs by grandchildren, but some will learn by no other method.

[scruff]

Sounds like a really tough position because it sounds like you respect your father. I have a pretty open relationship with my dad and I won't hesitate to tell him when he is on the wrong with firearm safety (and he respects me because I care about safety) but that is a different situation. I think you really need to talk to him one on one about it. It might lesson the embarrassment of being lectured by his son in front of other family members. Give him a book to read on it, like the art of the modern day gun slinger.

You're right, maybe a one-on-one would have helped. I guess I've been avoiding that; I've assumed that he'd get all pissy if I even broached the issue, since he's gotten pissy even from "please don't point that at me" requests when he and I have been alone at the range.

That's the crux of it; he seems to be offended at any suggestion that he's being unsafe.

[DrillNFill]

Reminds me of the time a few months ago I went shooting with an old family friend for the first time. We met up and he was showing me and others at the range his new revolver, but I noticed he kept sweeping me and others with the muzzle. I didn't say anything at the time, I was hoping someone else would. I guess after so may years you just become complacent. Me, I'm a safety Nazi at the range with muzzle discipline. OP, I think you probably handled it as best as you could have.

[Emptymag]

Just wait until you ask him for his car keys.


Same deal. He thinks he's "fine", you know otherwise. Fireworks ensue.


Good luck. I don't see him changing.