Military vs. Self defense training

[PeteG]

The first ten posts here are spot-on (except I am not as passionate about the selling of the military image as Tony apparently is).

This year I have doubled the emphasis I put on "why are you here?" That question gets thoroughly covered before we even do introductions or fill out paperwork. It has turned out to be the most constructive rewarding aspect of courses (at least for me!).

"Why are you here" dictates course objectives, helps me put into perspective choices regarding equipment and newer stances and shooting styles (especially regarding AR-style carbines), helps me get people focused on the critical difference between basic skills and style or fashion, gives me a good context in which to address the different legal rules and constraints that govern, and flags the occasional nut-case.

The way I cover the difference between military training and what "folks around here" should try and get out of training is to frame it in terms of broader objectives: Military use of the rifles is to destroy an enemy in the course of carrying out orders; civilian use of the rifles by police is to control a situation for the protection of others and to apprehend a criminal suspect (in that order of priority); non-LE civilian use of the rifles is to control a situation in order to get away.

The greatest difference is between military use and non-le civilian use.

One should be very clear which category they fall into before they proceed, although confusion in this regard generally results in nothing worse than someone their spending limited time and money inefficiently.

[PeteG]

People have been "prepping" since the 1970's and nothing has happened. Can you and should you arrange to survive a short term local or regional scenario? Certainly.

There have been nut-cases in hair shirts walking the streets with signs saying "THE END IS NIGH" as long as there have been streets. I cannot count all the deadlines for the end of the world - or at least the end of the world as we know it - that have come and gone during my lifetime.

Some people just need crisis in order to give them a reason to get up in the morning. I think it shameful when people exploit this (or any other) mental disorder in order to sell stuff; but otherwise it's not my problem.

[Mtbkski]

OK, Zombies... When they come you guys will shit your pants. But until then, Zombies is a way of talking about "bad times" or "bad people" and not having people want to call the police on you cause your some kind of a gun nut. Talk about killing Zombies, and the average person is OK with this. If your prepared for the Zombie Apocalypse, well, then your probably prepared for any natural or unnatural disaster that may arise. Zombies are fun. Live with it.

As for guys showing up with "gear". Hell, what is the difference between a guy showing up with plates and body armor and more mags than you can shake a stick at then the guy who has spent $2000 on a rifle with all the goodies. Both are extreme. But if they want to do it, more power to them. $1000 optics, $200 for folding sights, $200 for handguards... It is all extreme and way more than any of us probably will ever need. But I see firearms like this all over the place. And get recommendations buy those that teach classes to buy them cause you want the best.

Most likely none of us will ever have the need for a firearm to defend ourselve our entire lives. But there is always that "what if" factor. Your right, Zombies probably won't show up in this life time, and the government won't fall, and on and on. But tell those things to the people during the LA Riots. I bet it sure felt like the end of the world. Tell that to the people in Lousiana. We may not have a hurricane or a earthquake. But we have had ice storms just a couple hours north of us that have rendered areas totally shut down for weeks on end (the preppers probably rode it out pretty smoothly while many others struggled badly). We have had two airplanes flown into two buildings bringing them down killing thousands of people in a matter of minutes. We had an airplane crash just 45 minutes from my house that same day.

How can some of you thnk that we will "never" have a need to protect ourselves or that we will never need the gear and training to do it. I call bullshit.

Just because it has never happened, doesn't mean it can't. I don't wear a seatbelt because I plan on getting into a wreck, I wear one just in case. I don't carry a pistol daily cause I think I'll need it. I carry it just in case. I don't think the government is going to fall and our country will see another civil war. But by god, just in case, I'm going to try and be prepared. And just like the preppers out there, none of us want to see this world fall apart. But if it does... there is going to be an awful lot of us wishing we had prepared.

I personally feel some of you are a bit arrogant for thinking there is NO WAY that something could possibly happen. Your not different than the anti gun person that thinks your crazy for carrying a handgun daily (What do you need that for, your never going to need it?)

[Mtbkski]

OK rants over.

I like participating in classes given to "civilians" because from what I have seen, there is a big difference in how you would react in a "military" situation compared to a civilian situation.

Most of the training that I have had over the years involve "working with others". They don't train you to work alone in the grunts in the Marines. CERT teams in State Penn rely on numbers to make their techniques work. Even the Police are taught to "wait for backup".

But if the time does ever come that I have to use a firearm to defend myself or my family, be it from Zombies, gang of looters or someone breaking into my house. Chances are pretty good that I'm going to be on my own. And that is a totally different can of worms.

I would like to know that I have had some training under my belt that may just give me an upper hand in the situation. At the last training that I took, I did things I had never done before, yet, they are things that I do believe I could see myself possibly having to use if things were to ever go badly for me.

Those that show up with "lots of gear on". Well, like I told my last instructor. I know I don't need to wear this for class. But want to see if I "can" wear this all day, comfortably, and, can I do the things that you want me to do while I'm wearing it. Will I put on plate armor to go search out that bump in the night in my house? Probably not. But if a group of looters showed up one night, I just might be really glad I had it to put on. And I'll be even more comfortable using it if I have trained while wearing it in a situation that wouldn't get me killed before hand to see how it works.

[Spectre6]

Hell, what is the difference between a guy showing up with plates and body armor and more mags than you can shake a stick at then the guy who has spent $2000 on a rifle with all the goodies. Both are extreme. But if they want to do it, more power to them. $1000 optics, $200 for folding sights, $200 for handguards...

There is well made, reliable equipment, and there is cheaper not-so reliable equipment.. I saw guys overseas that spent next to nothing on chinese made chest rigs and magazine pouches and watched some of it fail. Then there are guys who bought gear for hundreds of dollars that performed very well.

I see nothing extreme about buying good stuff for your rifle that matches the job you intend to do with it.. A PEQ-15, ACOG, backup micro T-1 on offset mount, flashlight, grenade launcher etc.. would be extreme for a house gun, but maybe not for a deployment. Investing some money in a reliable weapon, with a reliable, bright combat light, a solid optic with mount and good BUIS can run you in the thousands, but is more appropriate for that specific job.

Its about having the right tool for the job, isnt it? An good tool will still not work if its not the right tool for the job.

It sounds like you like the military training for true crisis situations.. I respect that and this is why I asked the question in the first place, to see what people get out of that type of training.

And I get the zombie metaphor and I can appreciate it. If someone is serious about prepping I think they will get to it without the zombie metaphor, which clearly adds fun to the process.

[Gunowner99]

This is a great conversation. I have taken a few NRA classes to be more familiar with safe weapon handling/operation and usage. I have found them to be worth far more than what I paid. I am prior service, had plenty of experience with my "guns" but grew rusty over the years since being a "civilian." That's why I took the classes.

Will I ever take a tactical type class? Maybe, first though I want to expand on my shooting knowledge "without imminent threat" before I concentrate more on the defensive mindset. Maybe it's just me. Like others have said, if you have to wear a plate carrier and helmet because of a threat, there are bigger fish to fry than being able to "outmaneuver" an enemy. Just my $0.02.

[Mtbkski]

Like others have said, if you have to wear a plate carrier and helmet because of a threat, there are bigger fish to fry than being able to "outmaneuver" an enemy. Just my $0.02.

Our instructor at the last class brought up an interesting point. "Tactical Carbine Class". Why are we calling it "tactical"? It really is a bad word for the classes, but it is the "catch word" for the gun crowd right now (just like Zombies for some gun nuts)

I see the tactical training classes as the "next step" when it comes to firearms. OK, you can shoot the center out of a bullseye at 25 yards with one hand. Now, can you do that after running 50 yards (you heard your wife screaming for help in the back yard). Do you know how to shoot around that tree at the guy shooting at you. Most NRA style classes don't touch on this aspect of things. I think that the tactical type of classes should probably be called "realistic firearms training".

Sure there are some aspects of the classes that can be considered "tactical". But all in all, most of what these classes seem to teach you are how to shoot a firearm in an unusual situation. Like maybe from behind a tree (cover) or maybe under a car (using it for concealment). They teach you to reload quickly, or maybe shoot from the other shoulder. Something that is realistic, but not likely, to be needed.

Yep, plate carriers and helmets are for "really bad" situations. And like any thing that you purchase for your firearm to make it perform better, to last longer, to functions more efficiently. Body armor and helmets and such, well, they are just designed to make YOU last longer, function longer and more efficiently. Cause your firearm is just a piece of metal without you there to make it function.

[Mtbkski]

T
Its about having the right tool for the job, isnt it? An good tool will still not work if its not the right tool for the job.

I agree. But it is perspective that comes into play here. If you showed your AR with all the top of the line stuff on it to your mom, and told her what you paid for all of it, I bet she would think it was extreme. Why do you need all that expensive stuff on it?

Do we need $600 scopes on our AR's? Will there ever come a time when we are going to need a scope to do what these do? Probably not. Not any more than the guy wearing the plates is going to need it.

It is what we want to spend our money on. Like a really good Mt. Bike for $3000 dollars. THREE THOUSAND DOLLARS FOR A BIKE!?! ARE YOU F%$KING CRAZY. But I'm riding an about average bike in with the guys I ride with. And your right, you get what you pay for. But most people would think that I'm nuts for spending that on a bike, just like another person will think I"m nuts for spending another amount on my firearms to "trick" them out the way I want them.

[Spectre6]

I agree my mom would think im crazy.. But honestly the only opinions I care about are from the people who have the skills and knowledge in this area. If your mom was going to get serious about having a reliable firearm+optics and did the research, she would discover that its not so far off the mark.. Ok Im starting to feel uncomfortable talking about your mom now..

As far as optics go, what are you paying for? In my opinion you are paying for reliability. Most 'red dot' sights display a dot about the same.. yeah some look better than others but probably not 4-500 dollars better. But what you do get is an optic thats battery life is so good you dont have to think about it but once a year. And something that can take more than a few bumps, and thousands of rounds worth of recoil, and you can be comfortable that it will continue to perform if you ever need to use it. I have witnessed more than a few cheaper optics shit the bed without abuse.

For many situations you can do just fine with Irons, so if you are on a budget you could do without the optic. So I can see your point to that extent.

So the matter of perspective from people who dont deal in these matters doesnt really hold too much weight with me.. because for people that have done the research and have experience, 2k for a reliable AR you can really count on isnt outlandish at all. And from someone who has done some mountain biking, 3k for a nice mountain bike isnt that crazy either! But again, right tool for the job, you wouldnt take a carbon fiber road bike on the local trails.. These are large sums of money to be sure, but many times skimping on something you are serious about is a false economy.

[Mtbkski]

Excerpts from an article I read a while back. It relates to this subject.

"The single most important concept I can pass on to you is this; AS SOON AS YOU CAN, GET SOME TRAINING. The training must focus on fighting, not markmanship. If you don't know the basics of markmanship, you need to get them first. After that, though, you need to find teacher who will teach you how to fight with the rifle. You need to find teachers and companies that teach you to fight the way you are most likely to fight, not the way a member of a SWAT team or Infantry squad fights.

I think to many of us are too enamored with the concept of the rifleman, from the sharpshooters of the Revolutionary War through Sergeant York to scouts and snipers and beyond that. In the back of our minds, we hold the image, the hazy dream of the perfect shot and the setup that makes it for us: careful movement, proper positioning, good sight, smooth and steady trigger work. I think all of that is there, in the back, forming a framework for what we think we should be doing with the rifle.

That is a dangerous illusion we need to get rid of if we're going to be effective rifle-fighters (or gun fighters, period).

The attitude we should adopt about the rifle is more that of the skirmisher than the sharpshooter. Think of the infantryman getting into across-the-street and inside-the-room fights. We need to be able to deal with chaos close in. We need to understand there will likely be no perfect shot, just the best one we can get in the middle of the morning in the unlighted house or on the run from a group of rioters who are not content with destroying the property alone.

Furthermore, you have to think like an individual and isolated skirmisher or infantryman, not like a member of a squad or organized unit with additional resources on call. You are not the member of a team. You will be unsupported and alone with nothing but your weapon and the skill and experience you put behind it to help you. Pistol or rifle, you are the first responder to your own emergency. Start preparing your mind with this central thought: It is only you, your rifle, what you have at hand.

You draw the pistol to defend yourself. You pick up a rifle to dominate the situation. That is a paraphrase of a quote and I agree with it. We carry pistols mainly because we don't or can't carry rifles. Pistols are not the best weapon to win a fight with. If I knew for certain that I was heading for a fight or a fight was heading for me I would get a rifle. Then I would get friends with rifles. I don't want a fair fight, either. I want, if I can get it, dominating range, power an precision and every advantage I can get over the attacker(s). So, I choose the rifle if I have the chance and the choice of it.