AR-7 in car question

[badey]

I know the law states something to the effect that loaded magazines stored in a separate compartment of a case holding a gun does not constitute a loaded long gun. What is the law with a broken down gun and loaded magazines being stored in the same compartment?

So here is the scenario:

If I have an AR-7, broken down with the components stored in the stock and the magazines loaded, also stored in the stock. Would this be legal to transport in a car in this condition, since the gun is completely broken down (barrel, receiver, and magazines in the stock)?

[Svickstc]

Thats a tough one but will provide my 2cents (INAL)...

being that the ammo/mags must be stored seperate form the gun, must guns the reciever is classified as the "firearm" id say storing them together would not be a good call and would still keep the ammo and mags seperate.

I am not sure of the exact law on this but better to play it safe than sorry...in your case you will be at no advantage other than compactness storing them together, so why not just keep them seperate then possibily running into the law and them giving you shit even though the gun is not usable in the broken down form...dont want to get screwed on a technicallity

[knight0334]

The AR-7 isn't a "firearm". The physical state of the rifle or shotgun doesn't matter.

If there is a loaded magazine in the gun itself or same compartment as the rifle or shotgun it will be considered loaded.

The stock housing the action will likely be considered a compartment.

[libra8]

I concur. I would bet the manufactures took this into consideration when creating this firearm.

[Sparks]

I concur. I would bet the manufactures took this into consideration when creating this firearm.

Doubtful, Stoner designed this as a survival rifle for use by the Air Force. Best practice would be to have the magazine loaded to insure at least some ammunition supply.

To the OP, I’d leave it empty for car carry. There is nothing to be gained by having it loaded in this instance.

[Xringshooter]

My understanding is that as long as the magazine is not physically inserted into the magazine well then you would be ok. No different than having and AR in a case with loaded magazines in pockets within the case. That is considered legal. The pockets in the case are considered seperate compartments and that seperates the magazines from the gun. Now, if you have a loaded magazine in the AR mag well, even if there were not a round in the chamber, and even if it were not fully seated, that would be considered a loaded gun.

Here is what the PGC says:

Loaded Firearms - Vehicles: A firearm is considered loaded when there is
live ammunition in either the chamber or attached magazine. (bold is mine)

My comments:
According to my local WCO, a detached magazine can be loaded and sitting beside the gun in a case and the gun is considered unloaded as long as there is no round in the chamber.

As for the AR-7, as soon as you break it down, the stock is now acting as a storage container and as long as the magazine is not inserted into the receiver you should be fine.

[badey]

Thanks for the answers. I think if I have to transport it, I will err on the side of caution.

[ungawa]

My understanding is that as long as the magazine is not physically inserted into the magazine well then you would be ok. No different than having and AR in a case with loaded magazines in pockets within the case. That is considered legal. The pockets in the case are considered seperate compartments and that seperates the magazines from the gun. Now, if you have a loaded magazine in the AR mag well, even if there were not a round in the chamber, and even if it were not fully seated, that would be considered a loaded gun.

Here is what the PGC says:

Loaded Firearms - Vehicles: A firearm is considered loaded when there is
live ammunition in either the chamber or attached magazine. (bold is mine)

My comments:
According to my local WCO, a detached magazine can be loaded and sitting beside the gun in a case and the gun is considered unloaded as long as there is no round in the chamber.

As for the AR-7, as soon as you break it down, the stock is now acting as a storage container and as long as the magazine is not inserted into the receiver you should be fine.

I find this very interesting. It is in conflict with the common wisdom on this website, but I believe Xringshooter may be right.

I usually see people referring to this from Title 18 §6102. Definitions:

"Loaded." A firearm is loaded if the firing chamber, the nondetachable magazine or in the case of a revolver, any of the chambers of the cylinder contain ammunition capable of being fired. In the case of a firearm which utilizes a detachable magazine, the term shall mean a magazine suitable for use in said firearm which magazine contains such ammunition and has been inserted in the firearm or is in the same container or, where the container has multiple compartments, the same compartment thereof as the firearm.

However, that is the third definition after:

"Firearm." Any pistol or revolver with a barrel length less than 15 inches, any shotgun with a barrel length less than 18 inches or any rifle with a barrel length less than 16 inches, or any pistol, revolver, rifle or shotgun with an overall length of less than 26 inches. The barrel length of a firearm shall be determined by measuring from the muzzle of the barrel to the face of the closed action, bolt or cylinder, whichever is applicable.

And I'm not familiar with game code but I thought that was where the prohibition of loaded longarms in vehicles came from.

Can somebody backup Xrignshooter?

[GunLawyer001]

A few years ago, right here on PAFOA, I noted that the 6102 definition of "firearm" excludes long guns, but that the 6102 definition of "loaded" explicitly refers only to "firearm". This means that there's no literally applicable definition of "loaded" in the UFA for this:

§ 6106.1. Carrying loaded weapons other than firearms
(a) General rule.-- Except as provided in Title 34 (relating to game), no person shall carry a loaded pistol, revolver, shotgun or rifle, other than a firearm as defined in section 6102 (relating to definitions), in any vehicle. The provisions of this section shall not apply to persons excepted from the requirement of a license to carry firearms under section 6106(b)(1), (2), (5) or (6) (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license) nor shall the provisions of this section be construed to permit persons to carry firearms in a vehicle where such conduct is prohibited by section 6106.

(b) Penalty.--A person who violates the provisions of this section commits a summary offense.

I've said that I would certainly proffer this defense if I had such a case, if the long gun had no magazine containing cartridges inserted in it. But that a judge could easily use the only definition of "loaded" in the UFA and apply it to long guns. It even makes sense.

In this case, the AR-7 is designed to hold a loaded mag in the buttstock. The action is also stored in the buttstock. There's an argument that the disassembled buttstock is no longer part of the gun, that it's now a "container" with separate compartments. The reference in 6106.1 to Title 34 could also be used by defense counsel.

But there's also an argument that it's still the rifle's buttstock, that inserting the mag into the buttstock is inserting it into the rifle, and that breaking it down doesn't turn a buttstock into a container.

I expect that different judges would reach different outcomes, if you're caught with the gun stored as designed, with a loaded mag and the action both stored in the gun. We've all seen horrible outcomes from Pennsylvania judges in gun cases, from the lowest DJ's right up to the Pa Supreme Court.

The good news is that it's only a summary offense. The bad news is that a conviction could be used as the basis for a forfeiture of the gun, as derivative contraband. Your LTCF issuing authority might also use it to justify revocation of your LTCF, since it is a "gun crime" in some sense.

It's really tempting to pop a loaded mag in the buttstock and use the rifle as designed. But the safest approach is to keep the action in the stock storage slot, put the stock in a black Cordura tactical bag (preferably one with D-rings and paracord and a can opener), and keep a few loaded mags in a small pouch within that bag. It's still a grab & go deal, it will still float if dropped in water, but you eliminate the legal uncertainty.

[knight0334]

Gunlawyer001's post above is why I answered the way I did prior.

Your most legal option is to get a butt stock magazine carrier and store the loaded mags within the carrier that is attached to the stock.

There would be no worries then.