Police running serial numbers

[Anthony1911]

I was doing some reading on Chapter 61 of PA Code, and came across Title 18 Pa.C.S. §6127 -Firearm Tracing. I was kind of confused on this, as it seems LEOs break the law quite often, according to that code.

A LEO in my military unit said that when they run your serial, they run it through the NTC (National Tracing Center) of the ATF. However, in a lot of encounters, LEOs will run your serial number through this system to make sure the gun isn't stolen or anything like that. However, it is apparently only legal to run a serial through the NTC IF the individual is prohibited from possessing a firearm by Federal or State Law.

So, to my understanding, unless a LEO determines you are prohibited from possessing a firearm (most likely by looking up your identity for warrants and such), he/she is not allowed to run the serial number of your firearm through NTC.

Reading over this, it may also be interpreted that a LEO doesn't need to meet the criteria of "subsection (a)" to use the NTC, but instead must use the NTC if in the circumstance described in "subsection (a)", if that makes sense. Some clarity on this would be great.

Here is the code:

(a) Illegal possession.--Upon confiscating or recovering a
firearm from the possession of anyone who is not permitted by
Federal or State law to possess a firearm, a local law
enforcement agency shall use the best available information,
including a firearms trace where necessary, to determine how and
from where the person gained possession of the firearm.
(b) Tracing.--Local law enforcement shall use the National
Tracing Center of the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
Firearms and Explosives in complying with subsection (a).

Source: http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI...1.027.000..HTM

[dunno]

I can't wait to hear from GunLawyer on this one!!!

[tl_3237]

I was doing some reading on Chapter 61 of PA Code, and came across Title 18 Pa.C.S. §6127 -Firearm Tracing. I was kind of confused on this, as it seems LEOs break the law quite often, according to that code.

A LEO in my military unit said that when they run your serial, they run it through the NTC (National Tracing Center) of the ATF. However, in a lot of encounters, LEOs will run your serial number through this system to make sure the gun isn't stolen or anything like that. However, it is apparently only legal to run a serial through the NTC IF the individual is prohibited from possessing a firearm by Federal or State Law.

So, to my understanding, unless a LEO determines you are prohibited from possessing a firearm (most likely by looking up your identity for warrants and such), he/she is not allowed to run the serial number of your firearm through NTC.

Reading over this, it may also be interpreted that a LEO doesn't need to meet the criteria of "subsection (a)" to use the NTC, but instead must use the NTC if in the circumstance described in "subsection (a)", if that makes sense. Some clarity on this would be great.

Here is the code:



Source: http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI...1.027.000..HTM

That's the way I interpret it insofar as the Pa statute. Of course there may be Federal restrictions on NTC's use - I suspect it might have to be aligned with some criminal investigation.

Pursuant to the Gun Control Act of 1968, ATF is the sole federal agency that is authorized to conduct firearms tracing. The NTC is authorized to trace a firearm for a law enforcement agency involved in a bona fide criminal investigation.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/fact...ng-center.html

[Anthony1911]

Pursuant to the Gun Control Act of 1968, ATF is the sole federal agency that is authorized to conduct firearms tracing. The NTC is authorized to trace a firearm for a law enforcement agency involved in a bona fide criminal investigation.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/fact...ng-center.html

So, does that mean when police run a serial through the NTC, they are actually sending the serial to an ATF agent who then runs it through the NTC? Or at least that's how they're supposed to do it?

[Anthony1911]

So, I spoke with a lawyer today about §6127, and she said that both of my interpretations are correct.

1. If a LEO obtains a firearm from a prohibited person, he/she MUST utilize the NTC to attempt to discover the origin of the firearm.
2. A LEO may only use the NTC IF the criteria of subsection (a) is met; i.e. the LEO has to determine you are prohibted from possessing a firearm in order to lawfully use the NTC. If upon searching your identity it is discovered you can lawfully possess a firearm, the LEO has no legal right or authority to run your serial.

[flyingjunkie]

So, I spoke with a lawyer today about §6127, and she said that both of my interpretations are correct.

1. If a LEO obtains a firearm from a prohibited person, he/she MUST utilize the NTC to attempt to discover the origin of the firearm.
2. A LEO may only use the NTC IF the criteria of subsection (a) is met; i.e. the LEO has to determine you are prohibted from possessing a firearm in order to lawfully use the NTC. If upon searching your identity it is discovered you can lawfully possess a firearm, the LEO has no legal right or authority to run your serial.

So with that being said, (bold by me) this would fall under a 4th amendment violation, would it not? If they run your name and you come back clean, they have no probable cause to run your firearm and it would thus be an unlawful search and seizure. That's at least what I'm getting from this.

[Statkowski]

And they're going to continue doing it, and doing it, and doing it until some police officer gets his ass handed to him financially for a civil rights violation.

Don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen.

[Thomas Paine]

thanks guys. this is really good info.

[jerkin]

I was doing some reading on Chapter 61 of PA Code, and came across Title 18 Pa.C.S. §6127 -Firearm Tracing. I was kind of confused on this, as it seems LEOs break the law quite often, according to that code.

A LEO in my military unit said that when they run your serial, they run it through the NTC (National Tracing Center) of the ATF. However, in a lot of encounters, LEOs will run your serial number through this system to make sure the gun isn't stolen or anything like that. However, it is apparently only legal to run a serial through the NTC IF the individual is prohibited from possessing a firearm by Federal or State Law.

So, to my understanding, unless a LEO determines you are prohibited from possessing a firearm (most likely by looking up your identity for warrants and such), he/she is not allowed to run the serial number of your firearm through NTC.

Reading over this, it may also be interpreted that a LEO doesn't need to meet the criteria of "subsection (a)" to use the NTC, but instead must use the NTC if in the circumstance described in "subsection (a)", if that makes sense. Some clarity on this would be great.

Here is the code:

Source: http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI...1.027.000..HTM

The part I put in bold in your post is how I read it. It states that if the officer takes a firearm from a prohibited person he must run it through the NTC. It doesn't state that the officer may not use it for any other reason. Not sure where your lawyer is coming from, I wish she would have explained it further. I've heard discussions before claiming they can not run your firearm without a reason as it is an unreasonable search and seizure but I don't see the law you quoted having anything to do with it.

[Anthony1911]

The part I put in bold in your post is how I read it. It states that if the officer takes a firearm from a prohibited person he must run it through the NTC. It doesn't state that the officer may not use it for any other reason. Not sure where your lawyer is coming from, I wish she would have explained it further. I've heard discussions before claiming they can not run your firearm without a reason as it is an unreasonable search and seizure but I don't see the law you quoted having anything to do with it.

(b) Tracing.--Local law enforcement shall use the National
Tracing Center of the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
Firearms and Explosives in complying with subsection (a).

It says that LE shall use the NTC in compliance with subsection (a). If the criteria in subsection (a) hasn't been met when conducting a trace using the NTC, then the LEO isn't acting in compliance with subsection (a).