1 gun a month enforcement...and question about arrest record

[mythaeus]

As you've already know, Philly passed those 5 laws recently and it's for immediate enforcement.

I completely understand the illegality of these new law, but fact of the matter is that if you are arrested for violating one of these new laws, you'll still have to get a lawyer to defend yourself then appeal. I heard someone at my LGS mentioned that once you have an arrest record, regardless of conviction, you are NOT going to be able to get a license to carry. Is this true?

As for enforcing the new laws, I am interested in finding out HOW they are going to be able to figure out how many gun you've bought in one month? The PICS system won't be a valid way since you can have multiple PICS check w/o actually buying a gun correct? Would the PSP look at the forms filled out when you purchased a gun to see how many you bought at one time? I am scratching my head on this whole enforcement issue. Any insight is appreciated.

Oh, please DON'T mock or gripe about these laws and how stupid Philly is and how it should be incorporated into NJ (especially if you live in Philly), I am pissed off enought at it already it won't help the issue nor will it answer the questions asked. Thanks.

Al

[lildobe]

I heard someone at my LGS mentioned that once you have an arrest record, regardless of conviction, you are NOT going to be able to get a license to carry. Is this true?

The UFA specifically says convicted of, not charged with...

And even so, since the arrest was illegal in the first place, any lawyer who knows what he's doing should be able to get the entire thing expunged without much difficulty. In that case, it won't even show up in a background check, and you never have to say that you were ever arrested.

[Philadelphia]

As you've already know, Philly passed those 5 laws recently and it's for immediate enforcement.

I completely understand the illegality of these new law, but fact of the matter is that if you are arrested for violating one of these new laws, you'll still have to get a lawyer to defend yourself then appeal. I heard someone at my LGS mentioned that once you have an arrest record, regardless of conviction, you are NOT going to be able to get a license to carry. Is this true?

As for enforcing the new laws, I am interested in finding out HOW they are going to be able to figure out how many gun you've bought in one month? The PICS system won't be a valid way since you can have multiple PICS check w/o actually buying a gun correct? Would the PSP look at the forms filled out when you purchased a gun to see how many you bought at one time? I am scratching my head on this whole enforcement issue. Any insight is appreciated.

Oh, please DON'T mock or gripe about these laws and how stupid Philly is and how it should be incorporated into NJ (especially if you live in Philly), I am pissed off enought at it already it won't help the issue nor will it answer the questions asked. Thanks.

Al

My understanding is that the PSP will have to cooperate with philly and release your gun buying history. I don't think that's likely (or even possible really). If you buy more than one gun in a week at the same shop, they already have to file a report with BATFE -- if BATFE is allowed to release those reports to local LEO, that may be one way they can jam things up.

[Pro2A]

As you've already know, Philly passed those 5 laws recently and it's for immediate enforcement.

I completely understand the illegality of these new law, but fact of the matter is that if you are arrested for violating one of these new laws, you'll still have to get a lawyer to defend yourself then appeal. I heard someone at my LGS mentioned that once you have an arrest record, regardless of conviction, you are NOT going to be able to get a license to carry. Is this true?

Alan Keyes said it best... they aren't trying to ban the instrument. They are trying to put fear into the hearts of the people. They are trying to get people to think that "well golly its to hard to get a gun, so it's not worth the hassle" Either way any lawyer knows these laws are illegal, and you can expect lawsuit compensation from the city from arresting you illegally.

[BearTitan]

Alan Keyes said it best... they aren't trying to ban the instrument. They are trying to put fear into the hearts of the people. They are trying to get people to think that "well golly its to hard to get a gun, so it's not worth the hassle" Either way any lawyer knows these laws are illegal, and you can expect lawsuit compensation from the city from arresting you illegally.

+1 on that. I don't think that they will be able to easily enforce those laws.

That kind of gets me thinking: if the PSP has to put money into the PICS system, adding staff and systems to make the laws enforceable, that would be paid for by the rest of us through our taxes. That really sucks.

Of course, once the system is up and running for Philly, that will make it that much easier to roll it out to the rest of the state. Bastards!

[mythaeus]

The UFA specifically says convicted of, not charged with...

And even so, since the arrest was illegal in the first place, any lawyer who knows what he's doing should be able to get the entire thing expunged without much difficulty. In that case, it won't even show up in a background check, and you never have to say that you were ever arrested.

Is it me or most LGS guys don't really know the specifics for the law well? There seems to me that there are many assumptions that fitting to their "common sense" rather than facts. I understand that they are not lawyers, but I would think since it's a part of their job, they should know the legality better. Thanks for clearing that up.

Al

[mythaeus]

My understanding is that the PSP will have to cooperate with philly and release your gun buying history. I don't think that's likely (or even possible really). If you buy more than one gun in a week at the same shop, they already have to file a report with BATFE -- if BATFE is allowed to release those reports to local LEO, that may be one way they can jam things up.

I bought 3 of my 7 guns online, 1 FTF from a member of this board (and since it was a rifle, no FFL needed). Of the online purchases, the transfers were done by an FFL. I can just easily go to another shop and do the transfer. The only connection I can make is the transfer papers that are filed with the PSP. The only way they would raise a flag is when the form has multiple guns for transfer (I had one of such transfers). Also, I do my FFL is OUTSIDE of Philadelphia. I wonder if they even need to follow the BATFE's filing report requirements.

My guess is that the only time they can really enforce this particular law is if they arrested someone for another crime and looked into purchasing records, they may add that to the charges, rather than specifically go after someone.
Ugh....

Al

[mythaeus]

+1 on that. I don't think that they will be able to easily enforce those laws.

That kind of gets me thinking: if the PSP has to put money into the PICS system, adding staff and systems to make the laws enforceable, that would be paid for by the rest of us through our taxes. That really sucks.

Of course, once the system is up and running for Philly, that will make it that much easier to roll it out to the rest of the state. Bastards!

I'm not seeing how they can leverage PICS to enforce this. When an FFL call for a PICS check, it doens't mean that a gun is sold correct? What about trading? It's not buying or selling, but rather a transfer.

Since the the PSP is governed by state laws, shouldn't they reject any request by local authorities based on laws that violate the state consitution?

Al

[BearTitan]

I'm not seeing how they can leverage PICS to enforce this. When an FFL call for a PICS check, it doens't mean that a gun is sold correct? What about trading? It's not buying or selling, but rather a transfer.

Since the the PSP is governed by state laws, shouldn't they reject any request by local authorities based on laws that violate the state consitution?

Al

My understanding is that, when the authorization number is provided to the FFL, that the PSP logs that gun and serial number with your name. They could easily (but not inexpensively) do a search on your name, DL#, or SS# and look up your last purchase. If it is within 30 days, then they could refuse to provide an authorization number.

It would not be difficult to implement, although it would be very expensive and would probably give Fast Eddie another excuse to shut down PICS for a week.

[lildobe]

Is it me or most LGS guys don't really know the specifics for the law well? There seems to me that there are many assumptions that fitting to their "common sense" rather than facts. I understand that they are not lawyers, but I would think since it's a part of their job, they should know the legality better. Thanks for clearing that up.

I don't know what LGS stands for - I assume that you are talking aobut some form of LEO.

It's been my experience that while many LEO's know the basics about the law, they don't know the specifics about laws that are rarely encountered.

For us, laws regulating legal carry of a firearm by a citizen are common, every day laws - but to a LEO, who's chances of encountering a citizen legally carrying are slim, they aren't used much and therefore aren't as readily remembered.