Assault in Progress: What would you have done?

[djturnz]

A friend of mine related a story to me of something that happened about a week ago on a Friday night/ saturday morning.

His Apartment over looks an alley where a local club has it's rear/main enterance. I'll relay the story first-person, as he told it.

I always hear all the drunks leaving the bar but this time I heard a woman screaming from the alley. I looked out the window and saw a large black guy beating what I assumed was his girlfriend and yelling at her but I couldn't make out what he was saying.
I grabbed the phone and called 911. I gave them the info and they said they'd send a unit. While I was on with 911 I saw a white guy walk up to them and say something but I don't know what. The black guy turned to him and punched him in the face. The guy walked away.
Then another guy started to walk up and the black guy turned to him and pulled back like he was gonna swing and the guy held his hands up [as if to say "Nevermind"] and walked away.
Then he started to drag her down the alley. I knew I couldn't wait for the police so I handed the phone to my girlfriend. I decided not to take my gun with me.

I put on my sneakers and ran down stairs. My APT doesn't have a door into the alley so I had to run around the end of the block to get into the alley. When I cam around the corner I saw that two of his friends were now standing there with him and her. He looked at me and said "what are you going to do?".
I said "Come on man, you can't be beating your woman in the alley like this"

Then the two friends started to walk towards me.
"Stop right there, the police have already been called. If you fucking touch me you are going to jail"
The two stopped and hesitated for a second, then I saw headlights and turned around and saw officer B____ pull into the alley. [from the locations given to me, he is about 15 yards from the attack, and the cop is about 35-40 yards behind him.]

I turned around and ran back towards the car to point them out to him.
The guy and his friends, with the girl headed towards the back of a building.
I ran around the front and they had managed to make it across the street and were headed up the sidewalk toward another alley. I ran across after them and saw Officer L____ coming down the street. I went to the middle of the street and waving my arms to signal him while yelling "they're right here, right here!"

The attacker was pissed that I was flagging the police and started towards me. His friends grabbed him and told him not to do it.

That is when the police got involved.

Some background. We both work for a company as Security Officers, I work PT he is FT. We are trained and certified in OCAT, Crisis Intervention, self defense as it is taught for use in a juvenile home or psychiatric care center. He did use the officer's names, as we both work 3rd shift and know all of the 3rd shift police officers.

We were discussing this at the shooting range while taking a break to load mags. I told him that he is allowed by law to use his firearm to protect others just as he would himself, but that it was probably a good idea that he did not since if he would have had to shoot, the girl probably would have changed her story and said that some white guy just started shooting at them. I did tell him that it probably would have been good to at least take his OC with him. He said he hadn't thought of that.

My question is: Other than the probability that his "witnesses" would have lied to help the guy and get him in trouble, if he had taken his gun with him, would it fall under, "looking for trouble"? Or would he have been ok? I said if he had his gun and happened to be walking into the alley, it would be different, but since he was safe, but couldn't stand to let he get beat up, he put himself in danger and possibly "raised the agression".

If you want a laugh, re-read it with this image. His GF walked down to us at the range and asked why we stopped shooting. He said he was telling me the story about the alley. She said "oh yeah, you and your ducky shorts"

I said "what!?"

This guy looks like Drew Carey. A bit over weight, blonde, buzz cut with a bit of balding, just no glasses. Apparently he went outside wearing a T-shirt, sneakers and boxer-shorts with pictures of rubber ducks and soap-on-a-rope on them.

So how would you have handled the situation. I would have at least put on pants.

[PeteG]

If you are in for a penny, you are in for a pound. One cannot count upon being able to intervene "a little bit."

In this case, by keeping distance and distracting the bastards, your buddy likely saved that girl a beating. It could easily have come to an assault upon him, however, and he was not fully prepared.

On the other hand, had he taken the time to pull on his pants (which, by the way, should have been threaded with a belt, and to the belt attached a holster, pistol, spare mag, flashlight and cell phone) they might have been gone by the time he got out there.

So one has to make a decision.

My recommendation is not to physically intervene until one is prepared to do all things necessary to protect oneself and not make a botch of the intervention. In my opinion, that means taking a minute to get one's pants and related equipment on. If, during that period of time, the victim is injured, it is unfortunate; but that outcome is better than having two victims injured.

As things actually played out, I would not have resorted to the use of the firearm. Your buddy did fine under the circumstances. But had events taken a different turn (such as having the three thugs set upon him, or the police not showing up as they did, or there being five of them instead of three) he could have been maimed or killed ... and the damsel in distress along with him.

[sluggie24]

I respect him for trying to help but I would never had gone out there without my firearm on me. He was lucky that the police showed up when they did. What if they were busy with something else or further away? What If the guys in question were armed? Although three against one would hardly call for weapons but you never know.

Like PeteG stated.....if your not willing to do what is needed to stop it then don't get involved. Just try and be the best witness that you can.....maybe pull out the camcorder.

On a side note.....if the three had advanced on him and refused to stop and he was armed would he have been justified in pulling his firearm? What is the law on that since there are more than one?

[angus]

Good for your buddy for intervening. He made the call not to take his weapon and it worked out. I won't second guess him. He was there and I wasn't.

[PeteG]

Good for your buddy for intervening. He made the call not to take his weapon and it worked out. I won't second guess him. He was there and I wasn't.

I don't think anyone is second-guessing the fellow. I know I was not.

The question was "what would you have done?"

[PeteG]

On a side note.....if the three had advanced on him and refused to stop and he was armed would he have been justified in pulling his firearm? What is the law on that since there are more than one?

The issues are always the same:

1. Is one in reasonable apprehension of imminently suffering serious bodily harm or death?

2. Is the use of deadly force necessary to prevent serious bodily harm to oneself, or to another one seeks to or is under a duty to protect?

3. Did one do anything to provoke the attack ?

4. Does one have an avenue by which he can avoid the use of deadly force by retreating in complete safety (to himself and to any innocent third party he seeks to protect)?

If the answers are "yes," "yes," "no" and "no," then the use of deadly force is justified. It's pretty easy to figure out, at least in retrospect.

If set upon by multiple violent criminals (we can reasonably deduce they were violent criminals because beating a woman in an alley is both violent and criminal, as is attacking this fellow), and all one has done to precipitate the incident is issue a verbal admonition for them to stop, one can make a pretty good case for "yes," "yes," "no" and "no."

I know what I would do.

[BenningBoy]

A situation like that makes me think twice, if only because it is likely the girlfriend will change stories and the hero becomes the bad guy. I'm unsure why this happens, but it is often the rule rather than exception. Just my .02.

[knighthawk06699]

I am generally the guy on here who is all about avoiding the fight, but this is one instance where I throw that stance out the door. A man should never ever under any circumstances I don't care if his balls are on fire hit a woman. I would have told my GF grab the camera and start filming, and relay everything happening to the dispatcher on the phone. Especially if your buddy knows all the 3rd shift LEO's and I would have strapped up. If he is beating on a female he is more than likely a punk coward anyway, if he would have drew his weapon (if needed) the piece of alley trash would probably have ran. As far as the friends go, yeah watch your "buddy" beat the hell out of a female and then go three on one...with a dude in ducky shorts. lol I'll take my 11 over your three any day!!!! You are correct if three guys advance on you and you know they are not looking for hugs more than justfiable draw!!!! But like everyone else said if you are gonna get in it, you better be in to win it.

[angus]

I don't think anyone is second-guessing the fellow. I know I was not.

The question was "what would you have done?"

Please do not misunderstand. I was making no judgments on anyone; there are some good responses here. Just making the point that it's a tough call to make for anyone who wasn't there at the scene. Sorry for not being clear.

[Brown-Bear]

Good for your buddy for intervening. He made the call not to take his weapon and it worked out. I won't second guess him. He was there and I wasn't.

Exactly. But I'd atleast put my pants on tho.