HB 921 Elimination (PICS) & use National Instant Check System (NICS) Rep Krieger 2013

[WOP2]

I have a question about NICS. Is this the same system that Florida used when you used to be able to apply for a non resident permit ??
The reason that I ask is that I was turned done by Florida because of an incident that happended in NJ back in 98.
So if we use the NICS system, would I get turned down when I try to purchase another firearm?

Getting turned down for a license to carry does not necessarily mean you'll get turned for a firearms purchase. Florida licenses are extraordinarily difficult to obtain, and Kathleen Kane and the Philthydelphia cops are lying their collective asses off when they claim its a mail order proposition.

Don't know, nor do I actually give a shit, what you may have done in New Jersey. google BATFE Form 4473, read the form and the instructions well, and you'll know if you can buy a gun. Remember that lying on the 4473 is a go straight to jail offense.

[spoonltz28]

Thanks. I actually did get my Pa LTCF, and had no problems.
I will google that form and check it out.

[ljj870]

from all that i've read, it seems eliminating the ROS and keeping PICS seems like a decent idea, as others have pointed out, I'd rather deal with the PSP then I would the feds, and it would be far less expensive as well.
just thinking out loud not trying to sound like a squaking chicken.

[DreadPirateMoyer]

from all that i've read, it seems eliminating the ROS and keeping PICS seems like a decent idea, as others have pointed out, I'd rather deal with the PSP then I would the feds, and it would be far less expensive as well.
just thinking out loud not trying to sound like a squaking chicken.

You're 100% correct. I'm hoping that HB921 does not make it out of committee. It doesn't end the ROS database and it gives background check power to Obama's justice department. Not good all around, in my opinion.

If you feel the same way, please call in to voice your opinion. After meeting with my rep, it appears many are confused as to how their constituents actually feel on this issue.

[JenniferG]

No bill should be passed without the elimination of the illegal gun registration scheme know as ROS (Record of Sale). This is the time to do it, they are together, they are ready to vote and the bills can be amended at this point and it's an election year with a pro gun Governor and State Legislature. I would like to see the preemption clause strengthened that is included with the one bill but the elimination of ROS should have a high priority too. Remember this ROS (Record of Sale) is an illegal registration scheme and it violates the intention of all the laws and reforms we have fought so hard for.

The new bill about preemption is being offered up because local governments are consistently flouting the laws and making people spend their hard earned money and time to defend themselves from this politically motivated governmental malfeasance. How many laws does it take to make the government obey the law? That's why I laugh when I read that Alan Gotlieb who bought into the Toomey/Schumer/Obama lie that there were laws included with the Universal Background Check that make the government obey the laws. Once they have your name and where the guns are that's it, they know and at some point will come to get them and it'll be a mere matter of looking it up from a registration list like ROS or whatever they will internally call it once they get Universal Background Checks. Charlie Schumer on national TV referred to this registration scheme as the "Sweet Spot of Gun Control". The ROS list has to be made illegal once and for all, seized and destroyed. It is already an illegal registration scheme.

PICS vs NICS? With the elimination of ROS, PICS is probably the less evil of the two.

I guess I don't have to tell people that already understand how this all works. It took years and years of gun owners sitting on their hands on election day to get all these laws that we are now trying to have changed. Apparently the idea is to re-wordsmith the laws in order to make the weasels work harder at redefining those words. It will take years and years to correct all of the unconstitutional finagling that's been going on because many gun owners haven't thought it was important enough to participate in elections. This blatant non participation not only has led to all these unconstitutional gun laws and restrictions but have opened the flood gates to the chaff to vote themselves undeserved benefits right out your pocket. These bills are important but the two most important things to come out of this recent spate of energy are; the reinstructing of local governments to obey the law that is already law with real penalty and the elimination of the illegal registration scheme known as ROS (Record of Sale). Remember that this nothing but an election year exercise and you have to follow up by showing up to vote and you have to let your representatives know you're going to vote.

[WhiteFeather]

CeasefirePA is also actively lobbying against HB 921 & HB 2011
(you know CeasefirePA is the anti-gun group that is always lobbying for more gun control in PA)

You should be asking yourself WHY CeasefirePA wants to keep PICS instead of NICS?

IF NICS and the Feds are so much worse on gun control shouldn't CeasefirePA be supporting or at least go neutral on HB 921?


maybe you should be asking yourself really why are you siding with CeasefirePA a group dedicated to restricting to the eventual elimination your firearm rights.



From CeasefirePA web site on March 17, 2014
http://org2.salsalabs.com/o/5610/c/1...tion_KEY=16879

Urgent: Bad Gun Bills


The State House Judiciary Committee just released a surprise agenda for this coming Tuesday (March 18) and it’s a doozy. They are considering five firearms related bills, two of which are extremely dangerous for Pennsylvania:





-HB 921 would eliminate Pennsylvania's background check system -- a system which the State Police say keeps guns out of dangerous hands and keeps Pennsylvania safe




-HB 2011 which punishes towns for enacting local laws to keep their communities safe.



We need you to email your legislator to tell him/her that you oppose these bills, which threaten the safety of every Pennsylvanian.

We have provided a sample email. Please edit and customize.

As far as Record Of Sales goes with the elimination of PICS there will be NO more ROS being created or going to the PSP and soon the existing PSP database will become even more incomplete, hence really tough to justify spending money on maintaining that database in the future.

With going to NICS, the legal reasons the PSP claimed in lawsuit to keep the ROS database would also be eliminated, hence making it easy to deleted by executive action or another piece of legislation.

There any other intangible benefits with going to NICS only, besides you saving money, you not having to fill out a ROS, (sometime not have long wait to do transfers or having to deal with PICS going down for long periods).

Ever wonder why gun owners in other states are not lobbying to have there own version of expensive state based POC system like PICS?

keep in mind PICS has to follow all the regulations created by FEDS, only the PSP and state legislators can always tighten the noose to be more restrictive than the feds dealing with firearm transfers.

[ljj870]

HB 2011 is a great bill and definitely needs to pass sadly i'm still a non state resident and can't really be 100% involved, I mean I'll do all that I can, but HB 921 is kinda I guess iffy for me, because yea the PICS is a pain and sucks, but right now, we at least have a gun friendly administration in PA but not in washington, and I'm all about not giving the feds any more power than they have, and as far as the ROS could they handle it as a seperate bill? ( I know I've said all this before, but there's really no other way to sum it up, it's in a way it's a brown wet smelly creek either way we go on HB 921)And for the record, I despise ceasefire PA and all the other gun control groups, and the politicians they support, and the retarded ideas they cook up. for a perfect example of gun control gone beseark look at the safe act here in NY and all the brown stuff that's sliding down the mountain for that.

[freesoul]

Corbett, as head of the executive branch could end the ROS by 5pm today if he wanted to.

Good point that CeasefirePA is opposing this, you have to wonder why.

[GunLawyer001]

CeasefirePA is also actively lobbying against HB 921 & HB 2011
(you know CeasefirePA is the anti-gun group that is always lobbying for more gun control in PA)

You should be asking yourself WHY CeasefirePA wants to keep PICS instead of NICS?

IF NICS and the Feds are so much worse on gun control shouldn't CeasefirePA be supporting or at least go neutral on HB 921?


maybe you should be asking yourself really why are you siding with CeasefirePA a group dedicated to restricting to the eventual elimination your firearm rights.



From CeasefirePA web site on March 17, 2014
http://org2.salsalabs.com/o/5610/c/1...tion_KEY=16879




As far as Record Of Sales goes with the elimination of PICS there will be NO more ROS being created or going to the PSP and soon the existing PSP database will become even more incomplete, hence really tough to justify spending money on maintaining that database in the future.

With going to NICS, the legal reasons the PSP claimed in lawsuit to keep the ROS database would also be eliminated, hence making it easy to deleted by executive action or another piece of legislation.

There any other intangible benefits with going to NICS only, besides you saving money, you not having to fill out a ROS, (sometime not have long wait to do transfers or having to deal with PICS going down for long periods).

Ever wonder why gun owners in other states are not lobbying to have there own version of expensive state based POC system like PICS?

keep in mind PICS has to follow all the regulations created by FEDS, only the PSP and state legislators can always tighten the noose to be more restrictive than the feds dealing with firearm transfers.

I don't think Ceasefire objects to the elimination of PICS and handing control over to Holder's people, I think they object to the other things in the bills. They may use PICS elimination as part of their usual lies, but that's their game, they lie about the benefits and downsides of any law. If they can tell their people that "killing PICS is eliminating background checks in Pennsylvania", it sounds better for them, but we know that's not the case.

Yes, we should get rid of the ROS database. But this is like saying "I can cut off one of your arms and fix your teeth; wouldn't you like having good teeth?" Your natural response should be "um, couldn't you leave the arm alone, and just fix the teeth?" Because it would be an easy bill to eliminate the ROS form and require the deletion of the database.

"keep in mind PICS has to follow all the regulations created by FEDS, only the PSP and state legislators can always tighten the noose to be more restrictive than the feds dealing with firearm transfers." That applies now, and it would still apply after you kill PICS. Except that the additional categories of prohibited persons that exist RIGHT NOW under Pennsylvania law would be interpreted by Holder's minions, who would apply THEIR untrustworthy judgment to questions of whether another state conviction was equivalent to an enumerated offense. Or whether that generic "assault" charge from 25 years ago involved someone that would make it a "domestic violence" offense. Or whether that DUI charge is evidence of habitual drunkenness, or how long you have to wait until after that "paraphernalia" incident before it's no longer evidence of being a "current" user of unlawful drugs.

There is nobody who is prohibited now who would not be prohibited under NICS. It helps nobody get a gun, who can't legally obtain one now.

There are a lot of judgment calls to be made in any background check, and whether it's PICS or NICS, both PA law and Federal law will be applied to the facts as they know them.

If you recall, when the PSP wanted to resolve the confusion over how to handle stripped AR receivers, the then-head of PSP and Gov Rendell wanted to go too far, and treat even complete AR-15's as "handguns". Pennsylvanians protested, and the Governor and the PSP backed down.

Compare that to ATF's "Fast & Furious" operation, a corrupt scam designed to fabricate evidence that American FFL's were sending large numbers of "assault weapons" to Mexican drug lords. The evidence failed to support Obama's plan to impose gun registration on such weapons, so they intentionally sold thousands of guns to known criminals near the border, to CREATE evidence to support the need for registration. The creepy part is, we found out about it, the scam was uncovered before Obama and Holder could institute their scheme to require that thousands of FFL's report sales of those rifles...BUT THEY DID IT ANYWAY.

That's how little control we have over ATF and the Justice Department and Valerie Jarrett's puppet. Even after the curtain is pulled back and we see the rotted truth, we STILL can't stop them from imposing illegal schemes.

See how much influence the thousands of comments will have on what ATF is about to do with respect to eliminating the CLEO exemption for trusts. My bet would be, none.

We could eliminate the ROS database with a state bill, and I'd support that. We have zero chance to change the way the Federal ATF and NICS and Holder and Obama treat us.

I can't comment on why other states use NICS, but I will point out that most people voted for Obama. Twice. I think we're smart enough to think for ourselves, instead of substituting their judgment for ours. It may just be a budget issue; our economy hasn't exactly been generating tax surpluses for the last 20 years, and it's hard to sell the ignorant on the notion of doing yourself what anti-gun Washington will do for "free" (although it's hard to think of anything as "free" if we pay for it with Federal taxes instead of state taxes.) I think that saving 50 cents per Pennsylvania resident per year is a piss-poor reason to hand over our rights to the Obama Administration. That's about what you pay for the postage stamp to mail your state tax return.

BTW, I predict that NICS will eventually eliminate that automatic "approval" that allows an FFL to hand over the gun after a few days, if there's no response from NICS. What that means is that a lot of people who turn out to be prohibited are allowed to take the gun home after 3 days, and then they commit a new felony every day by possessing that firearm, until NICS figures it out. That's not a benefit to the gun-owning community, turning a possible charge of "making a false statement to an FFL" into "actual physical possession of a firearm by a prohibited person". That's more like a sting operation.

[ungawa]

I don't think Ceasefire objects to the elimination of PICS and handing control over to Holder's people, I think they object to the other things in the bills. They may use PICS elimination as part of their usual lies, but that's their game, they lie about the benefits and downsides of any law. If they can tell their people that "killing PICS is eliminating background checks in Pennsylvania", it sounds better for them, but we know that's not the case.

Yes, we should get rid of the ROS database. But this is like saying "I can cut off one of your arms and fix your teeth; wouldn't you like having good teeth?" Your natural response should be "um, couldn't you leave the arm alone, and just fix the teeth?" Because it would be an easy bill to eliminate the ROS form and require the deletion of the database.

"keep in mind PICS has to follow all the regulations created by FEDS, only the PSP and state legislators can always tighten the noose to be more restrictive than the feds dealing with firearm transfers." That applies now, and it would still apply after you kill PICS. Except that the additional categories of prohibited persons that exist RIGHT NOW under Pennsylvania law would be interpreted by Holder's minions, who would apply THEIR untrustworthy judgment to questions of whether another state conviction was equivalent to an enumerated offense. Or whether that generic "assault" charge from 25 years ago involved someone that would make it a "domestic violence" offense. Or whether that DUI charge is evidence of habitual drunkenness, or how long you have to wait until after that "paraphernalia" incident before it's no longer evidence of being a "current" user of unlawful drugs.

There is nobody who is prohibited now who would not be prohibited under NICS. It helps nobody get a gun, who can't legally obtain one now.

There are a lot of judgment calls to be made in any background check, and whether it's PICS or NICS, both PA law and Federal law will be applied to the facts as they know them.

If you recall, when the PSP wanted to resolve the confusion over how to handle stripped AR receivers, the then-head of PSP and Gov Rendell wanted to go too far, and treat even complete AR-15's as "handguns". Pennsylvanians protested, and the Governor and the PSP backed down.

Compare that to ATF's "Fast & Furious" operation, a corrupt scam designed to fabricate evidence that American FFL's were sending large numbers of "assault weapons" to Mexican drug lords. The evidence failed to support Obama's plan to impose gun registration on such weapons, so they intentionally sold thousands of guns to known criminals near the border, to CREATE evidence to support the need for registration. The creepy part is, we found out about it, the scam was uncovered before Obama and Holder could institute their scheme to require that thousands of FFL's report sales of those rifles...BUT THEY DID IT ANYWAY.

That's how little control we have over ATF and the Justice Department and Valerie Jarrett's puppet. Even after the curtain is pulled back and we see the rotted truth, we STILL can't stop them from imposing illegal schemes.

See how much influence the thousands of comments will have on what ATF is about to do with respect to eliminating the CLEO exemption for trusts. My bet would be, none.

We could eliminate the ROS database with a state bill, and I'd support that. We have zero chance to change the way the Federal ATF and NICS and Holder and Obama treat us.

I can't comment on why other states use NICS, but I will point out that most people voted for Obama. Twice. I think we're smart enough to think for ourselves, instead of substituting their judgment for ours. It may just be a budget issue; our economy hasn't exactly been generating tax surpluses for the last 20 years, and it's hard to sell the ignorant on the notion of doing yourself what anti-gun Washington will do for "free" (although it's hard to think of anything as "free" if we pay for it with Federal taxes instead of state taxes.) I think that saving 50 cents per Pennsylvania resident per year is a piss-poor reason to hand over our rights to the Obama Administration. That's about what you pay for the postage stamp to mail your state tax return.

BTW, I predict that NICS will eventually eliminate that automatic "approval" that allows an FFL to hand over the gun after a few days, if there's no response from NICS. What that means is that a lot of people who turn out to be prohibited are allowed to take the gun home after 3 days, and then they commit a new felony every day by possessing that firearm, until NICS figures it out. That's not a benefit to the gun-owning community, turning a possible charge of "making a false statement to an FFL" into "actual physical possession of a firearm by a prohibited person". That's more like a sting operation.

Is there any legitimate reason to anticipate that NICS would put PA Citizens under further scrutiny in the absence of PICS? PICS already uses NICS as far as I know. Does PICS actually overturn NICS denials?