School carry

[Pro2A]

Greg intrigued me today. He said that CC in PA schools was legal. That "It shall be a defense to carry in a public school".

What are you're views on this issue? This could be an interesting debate. Can or can't you legally CC in PA public schools?

[gnbrotz]

Greg intrigued me today. He said that CC in PA schools was legal. That "It shall be a defense to carry in a public school".
*Note by Greg - The quote isn't quite accurate, but the underlying assertion is.
What are you're views on this issue? This could be an interesting debate. Can or can't you legally CC in PA public schools?

§912. Possession of Weapon on School Property.

(a) Definition.—Notwithstanding the definition of “weapon” in section 907 (relating to possessing instruments of crime), “weapon” for purposes of this section shall include but not be limited to any knife, cutting instrument, cutting tool, nun-chuck stick, firearm, shotgun, rifle and any other tool, instrument or implement capable of inflicting serious bodily injury.

(b) Offense defined.—A person commits a misdemeanor of the first degree if he possesses a weapon in the buildings of, on the grounds of, or in any conveyance providing transportation to or from any elementary or secondary publicly-funded educational institution, any elementary or secondary private school licensed by the Department of Education or any elementary or secondary parochial school.

(c) Defense—It shall be a defense that the weapon is possessed and used in conjunction with a lawful supervised school activity or course or is possessed for other lawful purpose. (Added by L.1980, Act 167(1), eff. 12/15/80.)

Carry for self-defense is a "lawful purpose" and is therefore permitted under state law. Federal law already provides a school-carry exemption for those carrying on a license issued by the state in which they are in (A PA license will exempt you in PA, but not in WV, despite reciprocity).

Also, check out this thread where a forum member who is also a LEO (Steve in PA) comments on this issue.

[HiredGoon]

Federal law already provides a school-carry exemption for those carrying on a license issued by the state in which they are in (A PA license will exempt you in PA, but not in WV, despite reciprocity).

Greg, maybe I missed the reference to this in the past, but what federal law is this? Do you have a reference for it?
Thanks.

[Pro2A]

Heh... sorry about that. I tried to recall what you said the best I could

I understand what you said, I am curious as to what others think about the issue and how they interprit the law. I tend to agree with you Greg, that a lawful purpose is self defense. Therefore if you are carrying to defend yourself, you are carrying in a school lawfully.

[gnbrotz]

Greg, maybe I missed the reference to this in the past, but what federal law is this? Do you have a reference for it?
Thanks.

Still looking....I've found several references to the "Gun Free School Zones Act of 1990", but that was subsequently declared to be unconstitutional in United States vs. Lopez. Still trying to find a current Federal law. Perhaps this is now completely a non-issue? (I doubt it).

For reference, the 1990 act provided the following exceptions:

(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
(iii) that is—
(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;
(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.

Notice that if your issued license did not require a background check (Alabama is one example), the exemption does not/did not apply.

A little more info:

Public Law 104-208 Omnibus Consolidated Appropriations Act For Fiscal Year 1997
Sec. 101(b) Department of Defense Appropriations Act, 1997
Section 657, Gun-Free School Zone.

THE GIST: Congress was rebuffed in its attempt to exercise police powers at the state level by the U.S. Supreme Court, when the court declared the 1991 Gun-Free School Zone law unconstitutional, in 1995. That law was reenacted, to the surprise of many observers, as an unnoticed add-on to a 2,000-page federal spending bill, in a form essentially identical to the one the Supreme Court overturned.

The law makes it a federal crime to knowingly have a firearm within 1,000 feet of a school. An exemption is granted to anyone willing to register with the government for a specified license to carry the firearm (most concealed-carry permits would qualify, most hunting licenses would not).

The prohibition does not apply to: 1-Firearms while on private property that is not part of the school grounds; 2-Any firearm that is unloaded and in a locked container; 3-Any firearm unloaded and locked in a firearms rack on a motor vehicle; 4-Possession of a firearm for use in an approved school program; 5-Possession under a contract with the school; 6-Possession by law enforcement officers in an official capacity; and 7-An unloaded firearm, while crossing school premises to public or private land open to hunting, if crossing the grounds is authorized by the school.

It is also illegal to fire a gun (or attempt to fire a gun), knowingly or with reckless disregard for safety, in a place you know is a school zone, with the following exceptions: 1-On private property that is not part of the school grounds; 2-As part of a program approved by the school; 3-Under contract with the school; 4-By law enforcement acting in an official capacity. Self defense is not mentioned, and presumably, a self-defense shooting in a school zone, unless on private property, would violate this law. States are not prohibited from passing their own laws.

America had 121,855 public and private schools as of 1994. In effect, this law criminalizes the actions of nearly anyone who travels in a populated area with a legally possessed firearm. As with its overturned predecessor, its affect on the very real problem of youth violence is unclear, and of course, any firearm used illegally in America, whether it is near a school or not, is already a serious crime with heavy penalties.

[jsb889]

The general consensus on here is that while its legal, most (if not all) schools disallow it. You can get expelled.

Just conceal well, don't tell anyone, and you should be fine.

[gnbrotz]

The general consensus on here is that while its legal, most (if not all) schools disallow it. You can get expelled.

Just conceal well, don't tell anyone, and you should be fine.

I believe the OP is specifically referring to K-12 schools, not colleges and/or universities.

[LittleRedToyota]

Still looking....I've found several references to the "Gun Free School Zones Act of 1990", but that was subsequently declared to be unconstitutional in United States vs. Lopez. Still trying to find a current Federal law. Perhaps this is now completely a non-issue? (I doubt it).

the updated law is the same as the 1990 version except they added some wording regarding interstate commerce (that old standby ) to try to get around the supreme court's ruling that they the law oversteps federal authority.

from http://wise.fau.edu/~tunick/courses/conlaw/gunlaw.html

The original act made it a Federal crime to knowingly bring a gun within 1,000 feet of a school or to fire a gun in these zones, with carefully crafted exceptions. The Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1995 does exactly what the old act did. However, it adds a requirement that the prosecutor prove as part of each prosecution that the gun moved in or affected interstate or foreign commerce.

That is the only change to the legislative language of the original bill. The only change. We place only a minor burden on prosecutors while simply and plainly assuring the constitutionality of the act.

here is a link to the revised law:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wb...hool_zones.txt

as you pointed out, having a PA LTCF exempts you from the federal law.

[Ten*K]

"The law makes it a federal crime to knowingly have a firearm within 1,000 feet of a school. An exemption is granted to anyone willing to register with the government for a specified license to carry the firearm (most concealed-carry permits would qualify, most hunting licenses would not).

America had 121,855 public and private schools as of 1994. In effect, this law criminalizes the actions of nearly anyone who travels in a populated area with a legally possessed firearm. As with its overturned predecessor, its affect on the very real problem of youth violence is unclear, and of course, any firearm used illegally in America, whether it is near a school or not, is already a serious crime with heavy penalties."

so OC'ing at 999ft 11 and 15/16th" of a school gets you....