NFA/SBR extra barrel question

[liberty556]

I have owned class 3 items for a few years now and have a question that I can't get a straight answer for.

I have 12 AR's - 2 are registered SBR's - I have 3 uppers that are less than 16" long.

Is it legal to have more uppers under 16" than I have registered SBR lowers?

[sluggie24]

From what I understand once you have at least one SBR you can have as many uppers for that SBR as you wish without worry of intent to manufacture of other rifles that you may have.

[bug]

Not a problem BUT

Make sure you have a 16" upper for each of your title 1 ARs.

[GunLawyer001]

I wouldn't say that having one registered SBR or MG entitles you to all the short uppers you can afford, because if ATF comes after you, it will be a factual question as to your intent. Even in light of Thompson/Center, if ATF has some evidence of wrongful intent, then you could be convicted.

Examples would be having an SBR on a Colt large front take-down hole lower, with extra short uppers that have small front take-down holes that only match your Title I aftermarket clones. Or unique wear marks that prove that the short uppers were installed on the Title I lowers. Or pics on the Internet of you holding your unregistered SBR. Or storing the short uppers with the Title I lowers, separate from the SBR.

It used to be that ATF took the position that simply having an extra short upper in the same house as the Title I lowers was enough; I think they still say that, but the caselaw is against them. But they are still allowed to prosecute if they have more than simple possession, if they have additional evidence of wrongful intent.

It's safer than it used to be, but not perfectly safe.

[sluggie24]

I wouldn't say that having one registered SBR or MG entitles you to all the short uppers you can afford, because if ATF comes after you, it will be a factual question as to your intent. Even in light of Thompson/Center, if ATF has some evidence of wrongful intent, then you could be convicted.

Examples would be having an SBR on a Colt large front take-down hole lower, with extra short uppers that have small front take-down holes that only match your Title I aftermarket clones. Or unique wear marks that prove that the short uppers were installed on the Title I lowers. Or pics on the Internet of you holding your unregistered SBR. Or storing the short uppers with the Title I lowers, separate from the SBR.

It used to be that ATF took the position that simply having an extra short upper in the same house as the Title I lowers was enough; I think they still say that, but the caselaw is against them. But they are still allowed to prosecute if they have more than simple possession, if they have additional evidence of wrongful intent.

It's safer than it used to be, but not perfectly safe.

I undestand what you are saying about uppers that fit different weapons. I think he was saying however that he has an extra SBR upper for his SBRs as well as a bunch of full size rifles. I think in his case if all his SBR uppers are slightly different styles or barrel lengths but fit the SBRs he would be able to show intent to use them all with his SBRs. Now if he had a bunch of SBR uppers that were all the same as well as regular rifles then you are correct and he could indeed be in trouble.

I have to wonder though......why would you have registered two ARs as SBRs when you can so quickly change them around? Wouldn't one be enough with a few different uppers?

[GunLawyer001]

I undestand what you are saying about uppers that fit different weapons. I think he was saying however that he has an extra SBR upper for his SBRs as well as a bunch of full size rifles. I think in his case if all his SBR uppers are slightly different styles or barrel lengths but fit the SBRs he would be able to show intent to use them all with his SBRs. Now if he had a bunch of SBR uppers that were all the same as well as regular rifles then you are correct and he could indeed be in trouble.

I have to wonder though......why would you have registered two ARs as SBRs when you can so quickly change them around? Wouldn't one be enough with a few different uppers?

You and I agree, that evidence of intent will ALWAYS be an issue. My point was to negate the common sentiment in the thread, which seemed to be best represented by the statement that "once you have at least one SBR you can have as many uppers for that SBR as you wish without worry of intent to manufacture".

Since we have a hobby where so many people like to push the edges of what they can do (which I heartily approve of, by the way), it's important to know where the danger zone is, and where the safe harbor is. Owning a registered SBR is not a get-out-of-jail-free card for owning as many other short uppers as you wish, you can still get into trouble even without the blatant evidence that I suggested before. While I understand the idea of having 2 identical 7" barreled uppers for a single registered SBR (you find a bargain, you buy it just in case), maybe the prosecutor and jury will have different assumptions. So how you store the spares, how you label the box, what other spare parts you own, these will all be relevant. For example, it may be easier to sell the idea of expensive spare parts if you also have 5 stocks for your one SKS rifle, a few extra barrels for your one M-1 Garand; because you'd have an investment in extra parts that couldn't possibly be used for an illegal conversion, so that helps sell your claim that you keep spares for all your guns.

A parallel situation is the folks who paid a couple hundred dollars for a pre-'81 DIAS, which has no lawful use at all for a non-SOT/FFL. They'd have to show a large collection of other useless things, like nuclear weapon fin stabilizers or M-1 Abrams tank periscopes, to sell the idea that they spend lots of money on things that they never intend to use (and could not possibly use). Otherwise, a jury could find that you intend to use the DIAS as designed, to convert a non-MG into an MG, illegally.

[sluggie24]

You and I agree, that evidence of intent will ALWAYS be an issue. My point was to negate the common sentiment in the thread, which seemed to be best represented by the statement that "once you have at least one SBR you can have as many uppers for that SBR as you wish without worry of intent to manufacture".

Since we have a hobby where so many people like to push the edges of what they can do (which I heartily approve of, by the way), it's important to know where the danger zone is, and where the safe harbor is. Owning a registered SBR is not a get-out-of-jail-free card for owning as many other short uppers as you wish, you can still get into trouble even without the blatant evidence that I suggested before. While I understand the idea of having 2 identical 7" barreled uppers for a single registered SBR (you find a bargain, you buy it just in case), maybe the prosecutor and jury will have different assumptions. So how you store the spares, how you label the box, what other spare parts you own, these will all be relevant. For example, it may be easier to sell the idea of expensive spare parts if you also have 5 stocks for your one SKS rifle, a few extra barrels for your one M-1 Garand; because you'd have an investment in extra parts that couldn't possibly be used for an illegal conversion, so that helps sell your claim that you keep spares for all your guns.

A parallel situation is the folks who paid a couple hundred dollars for a pre-'81 DIAS, which has no lawful use at all for a non-SOT/FFL. They'd have to show a large collection of other useless things, like nuclear weapon fin stabilizers or M-1 Abrams tank periscopes, to sell the idea that they spend lots of money on things that they never intend to use (and could not possibly use). Otherwise, a jury could find that you intend to use the DIAS as designed, to convert a non-MG into an MG, illegally.

You have a point. Although WE may see nothing wrong with it and it is legal, in court the prosecution could make it look differently to an uneducated jury.

[liberty556]

I have owned class 3 items for a few years now and have a question that I can't get a straight answer for.

I have 12 AR's - 2 are registered SBR's - I have 3 uppers that are less than 16" long.

Is it legal to have more uppers under 16" than I have registered SBR lowers?

Okay, we have had some discussion on the issue and pointed out some possible AFT opinions. Does anyone know of a firearm law that specifically states that having more uppers under 16" than registered lowers is a violation? I am hesitant to call ATF as I would most likely get opinion rather than someone quoting me a law.

[sluggie24]

Okay, we have had some discussion on the issue and pointed out some possible AFT opinions. Does anyone know of a firearm law that specifically states that having more uppers under 16" than registered lowers is a violation? I am hesitant to call ATF as I would most likely get opinion rather than someone quoting me a law.

In truth it wouldn't matter if you got the law from them as they have already demonstraited their willingness to instantly change the laws when they see fit to convict whoever they want.

[JayBell]

the ATF has addressed this issue in the following letter, even tho, under the Thompson Center case, they have to prove INTENT, just because you have short uppers does not mean you plan on assembling a illegal SBR.

the ATFs view is simple, if you have a short upper, and an AR15, you are in violation of the NFA under the "constructive possession" theory, which is BULLSHIT of course, because if i have a hacksaw AND a shotgun, OBVIOUSLY I plan on using teh hacksaw to lop the barrel to illegal length on the shotgun...right?

Either way, best to have no extra uppers or parts for same without a valid use for them.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wb...f_letter90.txt

"4. Can you have several short barrel uppers (less than 16 inches)
for the registered AR and still own semi-auto AR's?

The definition of a firearm in section 5845 of the NFA includes a
rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.
An individual possessing more than one short (less than 16 inches)
barreled upper receiver for a registered AR15 machinegun along with
one or more semiautomatic AR15 rifles would have under their
possession of control an unregistered short barreled rifle, a
violation of the NFA."