CLEO Sign-off Requirement to Stay?

[jpkotor]

So I've been hearing rumors about getting rid of the CLEO sign-off, which excites me as a Philadelphia resident since the law enforcement of this great city finds itself immune to both federal and state regulations. I'm not looking forward to have to pay for a lawyer to set up a trust just because my county can't follow the law of the land.

Anyway... I decided to Google it and see what's been going on. Apparently the rumors are a little over enthusiastic? It seems this has come up before, hasn't gone anywhere, and there isn't much difference this time.

Anyone have any insight on the matter?

http://blog.princelaw.com/2013/01/15...d-not-so-fast/

[GunLawyer001]

The marketing of trusts has always looked a lot like the marketing of Amway dealerships, and even includes some of the multi-level marketing aspects, unsourced testimonials from shills, false claims, and participation from people who had to have the difference between the terms "Class III dealers" and "Class III firearms" explained to them here on PAFOA (Hint: Only one of those terms is real.)

Try and get your Googled news from people with more than 2-3 years experience in firearms law, who aren't trying to sell you a trust. I've provided LLC's for people, if they really NEED something other than direct ownership, but I've also posted several times on PAFOA that it may be an option to wait & see what happens with the elimination of the CLEO signature, combined with the burdening of entities with background checks and forms on each responsible person.

In other words, if you wait a year or 2 or 3, you may be able to file the forms and be treated like a human being instead of a criminal, even in Philadelphia. Prices will likely rise, maybe a lot, as the market expands to all those poor bastards living where nobody would sign off. Limited supply, larger market...do the math.

It's not guaranteed to happen, but it's moved further than similar efforts have progressed before, and ATF really wants it now because of the risk of prohibited persons sneaking past them via trusts (mostly trusts, because there's no real coordination with the states). To get that check on the trust and LLC and corp owners, ATF appears willing to trade away the CLEO requirement, which is antiquated and pointless in the age of national computerized criminal history data.

In other words, anyone with a trust, corp or LLC may have to submit to personal background checks in the near future, which makes the "privacy" selling point of trusts go away. Not so much for corps or LLC's, which are just as private in any meaningful sense, but have been sold for their better security and stability.

I would expect that fewer people will need to hire me to create LLC's if this happens, which will be offset by the increased convenience when I can fill out the forms for my own transfers without that extra step of visiting the Sheriff. I'll still help people with LLC's if they want to share ownership, or they live in a non-free state and need an entity in Pennsylvania; but nobody should need one just because they can't get a signature where they live. Keep your fingers crossed.

[jpkotor]

Thanks GL. Still gotta spread more rep before I can contribute to yours again... Your input is always appreciated!

[blueskiesPA]

Gunlawyer101--

I am thinking of setting up a trust. I would like to purchase a suppressor. I have been reading and trying to figure out which way is better and it sounds like setting up a trust is the way to go.

Is this something you can do?

[GunLawyer001]

Gunlawyer101--

I am thinking of setting up a trust. I would like to purchase a suppressor. I have been reading and trying to figure out which way is better and it sounds like setting up a trust is the way to go.

Is this something you can do?

Drop me an email, we can discuss your needs.

[blueskiesPA]

Great, will email on Sunday, heading to bed, tomorrow I will be teaching all day. Send you info on Sunday.

Thanks

[SigForLife]

Drop me an email, we can discuss your needs.

That's interesting that you would offer to discuss his needs, when he said he wants to discuss a trust, and you have previously stated both that you don't know trust law and that you would never use a trust. One only needs to do a quick search to find that you only utilize LLCs.

So, have you had a change of heart or are you misleading him into believing that you can provide him a service that you cannot?

[shademtarmory]

I'm new to this forum and new to being a dealer as well as to LLCs. I can safely say that from what I've seen, LLCs are the way to go. I setup a single-member LLC for my dealership and it was so easy to setup. I don't know much about trusts so I can't say much on the trust issue.

I am thinking of setting up another LLC so that my wife can have possession of my NFA firearm I'm purchasing as well as me (and my kids in the future). I have no problem getting the Sheriff to sign off because I work for him. I just want a secure way of knowing that my wife (or kids) can get possession of my NFA items without having to go through the BS of doing a transfer for each item in the event of my death. I also want to make sure my wife (and kids in the future) can take possession of the NFA items to use them without me having to accompany them to the range.

My only question for GL is if I still have to get a Federal EIN number and State Sales Tax License if I'm not going to be conducting any business with my LLC. The ONLY purpose of the LLC would be for possessing NFA items as well as some other firearms.


Posted from Pafoa.org App for Android

[GunLawyer001]

. . . .
My only question for GL is if I still have to get a Federal EIN number and State Sales Tax License if I'm not going to be conducting any business with my LLC. The ONLY purpose of the LLC would be for possessing NFA items as well as some other firearms.


Posted from Pafoa.org App for Android

The IRS has a page:
http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-...d-a-New-EIN%3F

Here's another discussion:
http://www.tax-business.com/200604.htm

Note that they assume that your LLC will actually be DOING something. Hiring employees, collecting sales tax, making a profit, stuff like that. Your LLC won't be doing much of anything, and almost certainly it won't do anything that requires filing a form with a separate EIN.

But I didn't set up your LLC, I didn't draft the special Operating Agreement that keeps your wife and kids legal, so you'll need to evaluate your situation in light of the particular facts. Do a Google search, "do I need an EIN for my LLC", that should fill in some of your questions.

[shademtarmory]

After reading that link on the IRS' website, it looks like I'll need an EIN since I won't be the only member of the LLC. I guess I just need to look into if I need a PA State Sales Tax License. If I do need a Sales Tax License, that may be the deal breaker between forming another LLC vs. forming a trust. I know I wouldn't have to pay anything, but just the fact that I would have to file sales tax returns either quarterly or semi-annually for the rest of my life kind of puts a sour taste on the LLC idea.

UPDATE: Just did some research and found that as long as you're not making ANY sales of taxable items, you don't need to register for a PA State Sales Tax License.
Ref: 61 Pa.Code §34.1 (relating to Registration)
PA Dept. of Revenue's Retailer's Information Guide