Mosin, what to look for?

[leumas]

New to making a post so hopefully I get this right.
I'm going to the gun show this weedend and hoping to pick up a mosin, you know the cheap crate jobs. Just not sure what to look for and hope some of you guys can give me guidance. Is there markings, or anything to avoid? I don't really care about how pretty it is, just functionality. Hoping to pick up a few hundred or more rounds. Any help here is greatly appreciated. thanks

[Andrew6791]

Most important is the bore. Remove the bolt by pulling the trigger and sliding it back, hold it up to the light and if you see a bright bore with sharp rifling you have a winner.

[Andrew6791]

Forgot to add, make sure u have the headspace checked.

[internet troll]

Some good advice in this thread from a week or two ago.

http://forum.pafoa.org/rifles-42/202...l-no-deal.html

http://forum.pafoa.org/2269826-post-19.html

[PA Rifleman]

New to making a post so hopefully I get this right.
I'm going to the gun show this weedend and hoping to pick up a mosin, you know the cheap crate jobs. Just not sure what to look for and hope some of you guys can give me guidance. Is there markings, or anything to avoid? I don't really care about how pretty it is, just functionality. Hoping to pick up a few hundred or more rounds. Any help here is greatly appreciated. thanks

Looks like you're new, so welcome to PAFOA!

Here's a repost from another thread, see if there's anything that answers your question:





Related posts:

• Disassembly
• FAQ
• http://tinyurl.com/2rxayw
• Firing pin protrusion
• How important is it to check the headspace in a Milsurplus rifle?
• More on Mosin headspace
• M91/30 Russian Question???
• My first rifle...M44 pics inside
• M-44 Owners Speak Up
• Sighting in scoped Mosins

Here's a repost that discusses Mosins in more detail, along with similar posts:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PA Rifleman
Makes sense, although reading this thread (more to the point -- checking out the links) would have answered most of your questions.



Tula - look for the star.



Izhevsk - early-bow & arrow, later-arrow inside triangle.
--



It's a salesman whipping up collector interest where there isn't any. I'd spend more time with a seller that admits selling garden variety Mosins than raconteurs hawking "rare" models. At least I know I'm dealing with an honest seller.

Five years ago, laminated Mosins were touted as extremely rare and the hot shit for collectors. They were in the $200+ range back then. Unless it's a really rare specimen (original dragoon, sniper, etc), the term "rare" is very subjective. Unless, of course, you happen to be the seller. Also be sure to differentiate between rare and out of stock. M38s aren't rare, but are hard to find right now for sale. Rare is a Chatellerault Mosin, Chatellerault made about 500,000 Model 1891s. Few survive today.


Chatellerault Mosin barrel markings, top row, second from right

Sidebar: top row, third from left may be a very early Tula, I recall they were using a hammer for a while.

This image (above) is a mousepad, click here for details. Click here for more info about various makers and their markings.



See below

See below


Again, read below. You missed a couple of points.
......................................

And in case you're just joining us...

-------------Repost-------------

a few items to put on your checklist:

• Matching witness numbers
• Counterbored muzzle
• Round or the so-called "Hex" receiver
• Laminated or regular wood stock
• Special markings (MO, Dragoon, etc)

"Hex" receivers (actually half-octagonal) were made before approximately 1930. Prior to 1930, the manufacturing was done on the old machinery that used the imperial units. For instance, the rear sight elevation unit is the Arshin or Arshine, depending on who you talk to. An Arshin is 71 centimeters or .71 meters, also 2.33 feet.

Around 1930 Russian arms manufacturing went metric, and simplified some of the manufacturing steps. Older 1891 pattern rifles were retrofitted with the newer metric sights. This is why you still find half-octagonal receivers with metric sights. Original Mosins fitted with the Arshin sight are less common, but not impossible to find. They tend to be in poorer condition and have rough bores. There are Mosins around that even pre-date the 1898 modern firearms rule, which means Mosins made between 1891 and December 31, 1898 are in the same classification as black powder guns.

Counterboring is a process that removes the interior surface of the bore at the muzzle for an inch or more down the bore, and reshapes the "crown" where the counterboring stops. It's a dead-giveaway of a major rebuild, and very likely abusive cleaning techniques that led to cleaning rod wear at the muzzle. The Mosin rifle was originally issued with a false muzzle (kit photo link) to prevent this, unfortunately it wasn't always used. So, I avoid counterbored muzzles if I intend to resell later, shoot now or both.


-- --

Various representations of counterbored muzzles, a post-manufacture repair.



Cleaning tools set up properly. Note false muzzle (cap) to prevent cleaning rod from contacting rifling at muzzle. Failure to use the muzzle cap causes premature rifling wear at the muzzle.

Laminated stocks appeared very late on Mosins in W.W.II, and until recently I suspected they were mostly limited to M1944 carbines. Laminated M1891/30 stocks were less common, laminated M1938s were very rare. And most of the M1938 laminated stocks were M1944 carbine stocks (recess cut for the folding M44 bayonet). There were a few surplus arms peddlers selling laminated M1938s, but all were counterbored. Interestingly, the laminated stock was a stopgap measure to make spare stocks from wood scraps that would have been otherwise unsuitable for gun stocks. The cross grain structure tended to cancel the effect of warping from heat changes and humidity, making these stocks less prone to warping than the conventional hardwood stocks they replaced. All the M1891/30 laminated stocks that I'm aware of were replaced after the end of W.W.II. Laminated 91/30s are plentiful on the surplus market right now in both round and "hex" receivers.


Laminated stock on a model M1891/30


M1938 carbine in a M1983 laminated stock (rare)


Hardwood stock on an ex-sniper (fairly common)

Headspace: I recommend checking headspace, a lot of Mosin buyers don't bother. To keep this on topic (re: laminated stocks & genera selection), you can read more about headspace here:

http://www.pafoa.org/forum/rifles-42...-question.html (Mosin Nagant Russian M44 question)
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q...=2007&safe=off
http://www.google.com/search?complet...ace%22&spell=1
http://www.google.com/search?complet...=Google+Search
http://www.switchbarrel.com/Head.htm
http://www.pafoa.org/forum/rifles-42...lus-rifle.html (How important is it to check the headspace in a Milsurplus rifle?)
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/Gun...x?p=0&t=1&i=41

You should be able to buy a button-style gauge for about $20, assuming you aren't successful finding anyone with a gauge near you.

Gauge sources:
http://www.clymertool.com/headspac/index.html
https://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/st...il.aspx?p=6635
http://www.pacifictoolandgauge.com/gauges.asp
http://www.midwayusa.com/
http://www.google.com/search?complet...24&btnG=Search

Clymer
Forster
Midway
Brownells

...more...

Matching numbers come in two basic flavors, matched and so-called "forced match". Matched can be all original, or incomplete gun with parts later added and machine-stamped after the fact to match. It's hard to tell the difference, particularly if the same stamping machine was used to match the more-recently added parts. Forced match means one or more witness-marked part was misnumbered, most likely from a donor gun elsewhere. The original number was crossed out and a new number was stamped or electro-penciled on the surface. I understand electro-pencilling was a post-war event, I have never seen electro-pencilling on an unaltered World War II firearm.


Example of force-match. Note post-war electro-pencilling. Click to enlarge.

Electro pencilling is a good clue the specimen's a post-war rebuild.

More considerations:

• Mosin rifles made or rebuilt after approximately 1930 are found in three major models: M91/30, M1938 and M1944. The 1938 and 1944 are roughly the same rifle, the 1944 has a side-folding bayonet, the 1938 carbine lacks this feature, and does not take a bayonet. While intuition steers many towards selecting the bayonetted model, the 1938 is actually a little better balanced since the bayonet folds on the side of the 1944 (details, photos). There's also been quite a bit of discussion how the bayonet position affects zero on the 1944. I prefer the M1891/30 or the M1938 carbine, and the bayonet on the M1944 makes the carbine feel a little unbalanced to me. Not enough to be problematic, but enough that the M1938 gets first pick in the range case.
• They fire 7.62x54R ammunition. Right now it's still available, but the selection is getting limited to 2-3 choices. The good news is Mosin rifles are miserly with ammunition, so a 440-round tin should last a while. Stock up when you find it cheap, not when you need it.
• If you're not accustomed to rifles, consider trying out a friend's rifle first. Ideally a 22, then work your way up. The 7.62x54R that the Mosin fires is a high-powered rifle round by today's standards. They also have a bit of a report (and recoil) and 1-2 foot fireballs at the M1938 & M1944 carbine muzzle aren't unheard of.
• They're not suitable for telescopic sights due to the receiver design. If you want a scope on your Mosin, buy a sniper variant with a steel base. Some are aluminum, avoid these like the plague. (details) Another option is aftermarket scope mounts that replace the rear sight, you'll need to look around to see whether people like these or not.
• Check head clearance (definition) before firing for the first time. (details)
• Purchasing selection points - I usually ask for all matching witness numbers and avoid counterbored muzzles. It's a cosmetic issue since I want them to retain as much collectible value as possible. Also, laminated stocks seem to have a little more collector interest than the original hardwood stock.
• Please familiarize yourself with bolt disassembly and reassembly, and also setting firing pin protrusion before firing your Mosin.

If you're considering a telescopic sight, take a look at the reproduction "sniper" offerings:

Mosin M91/30 sniper

At $400, the price is mostly the sum of the parts...$100 (rifle)...$150 (scope)...$50 (turned down bolt handle)...$100-$150 (mounts).

Finnish Mosins
If you'd prefer more accuracy, consider a Finn Mosin:

Finn M39, early straight-stock (less commonly encountered)

When the Finns separated from Russian around 1917-18, they inherited a *lot* of Mosin receivers. The Finns developed their own flavor of the Mosin, and as such they have their own set of model numbers. The Finn Mosins are well known for premium accuracy and being the benefactors of good care. All the examples I've seen to date were not pitted or had any corrosion. Most of what I'm seeing are the later M39s. Tip: The Finns unhitched from Russia around 1917, the Fins had a fair number of receivers made prior to 1899. This means these pre-1899 rifles are "antiques", and thus legal to buy, sell & ship without an FFL.

There are a dizzying array of Mosin variants prior to the M1891/30, and when you add the variations on markings and manufacturers, it expands the field even more.

As far as which model, that's up to you. The M1891/30 is the most commonly found model, the M1944 is the second most common. I prefer the 91/30 or the M1938, as they are essentially the same exact rifle except for the barrel length. The M1944 is the M1938, with the addition of a side-folding bayonet. The side-folding bayonet makes the rifle slightly unbalanced to me, but not enough to affect the shooting experience. In the end, it'll be a matter of your preference. Many Mosin owners (myself included) choose to buy one of each model, sometimes multiples of each. With prices being held low by ample supply, it is a very inexpensive entry point into the shooting and Curio & Relic collecting hobby.

Reading assignment:
http://www.mosinnagant.net/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosin-Nagant
http://www.russian-mosin-nagant.com/
http://7.62x54r.net/

There are too many web pages to list in the time I have to type this post, so I'll let you browse a google search result for yourself:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search

The result of unsupervised Mosins: More Mosins.


And then there's the topic of ammunition, which leads to cleaning techniques after firing corrosive ammunition...that'll be another post. I will close with this picture:



Grab it when you find it. It's the can opener for opening ammunition cans. They have an amazing ability to vanish when needed most, and remain underfoot the rest of the time.

[internet troll]

PaRiflemans above post was also the second link in my previous post.

[leumas]

thank you gentlemen!

[DSMDealer]

I'm going to the gun show this weedend and hoping to pick up a mosin,

And the race is on!

My brother and I will be heading there as well.

I'm going up to visit family in Danville, and there just happens to be a gun show this weekend.

--or--

I'm going up to a gun show, and there just happens to be family up there....

;-)

I'm actually more interested in finding an M44 for a reasonable price up there, but another 91/30 to add to the mix wouldn't make me cry.

[PA Rifleman]

thank you gentlemen!

<looks around> did someone else come in?

Don't thank us yet, Mosins...multiply.

[internet troll]

<looks around> did someone else come in?

Don't thank us yet, Mosins...multiply.

Are you saying you are not a gentleman? There are benefits to being a gentleman afterall.