NJ Resident with interesting PA Situation

**Doc7** · February 1st, 2013, 11:44 PM

Hello all! First post...but a long-time lurker / reader of your forums, especially through internet searches where I include the keyword "PA."

My parents own a 2nd home in PA. I try to visit 12-30 times a year, all year-round for skiing, etc. I recently became an NJ gun owner and am very interested in squirrel hunting in the PA State Gameland that borders the property next year, so my next purchase is a bolt-action .22 (first one was a Marlin 60). After that I intend to get into rim-fire handgunning and then a defensive-caliber handgun once I get some practice.

I know that I can get a non-resident Florida CCW permit, after undergoing proper training and paperwork/fingerprint processes, and be able to use my great American right to carry in PA, whether it is concealed/open carry while hunting or concealed carry while just going about my every day business (I understand there may be possible certain exceptions for hunting, but a permit only expands those exceptions).

Here is where my situation gets interesting, even more so than the other complications other posters have already discussed regarding NJ/PA transport, which I already have read about and know the various legal methods. Mine is a bit more subtle. While at our PA residence, I cannot exit the neighborhood the house is in without crossing the front parking lot of a school. By all means it is 100% within 1000' of the school.

With a Florida non-resident permit, and no NJ permit, I understand that I cannot get a PA LTCF. I am presuming that this means, if I wanted to for instance concealed carry while going to the movies/store/hunting/whatever, I would need to drive through the school zone and then retrieve my secured weapon from the trunk after I passed through it?

Followup question, when I leave NJ and head to the Pocono house, does the PA law state to pass through that school zone and get to my house that I need to have it in a locked CASE, or is a trigger lock AND in the closed trunk OK? Sounds like I should have bought a hard-case instead of a soft-one (not lockable) for transport between houses if I need to specifically lock the case.

Thanks!

**tl_3237** · February 2nd, 2013, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by Doc7

Hello all! First post...but a long-time lurker / reader of your forums, especially through internet searches where I include the keyword "PA."

My parents own a 2nd home in PA. I try to visit 12-30 times a year, all year-round for skiing, etc. I recently became an NJ gun owner and am very interested in squirrel hunting in the PA State Gameland that borders the property next year, so my next purchase is a bolt-action .22 (first one was a Marlin 60). After that I intend to get into rim-fire handgunning and then a defensive-caliber handgun once I get some practice.

I know that I can get a non-resident Florida CCW permit, after undergoing proper training and paperwork/fingerprint processes, and be able to use my great American right to carry in PA, whether it is concealed/open carry while hunting or concealed carry while just going about my every day business (I understand there may be possible certain exceptions for hunting, but a permit only expands those exceptions).

Here is where my situation gets interesting, even more so than the other complications other posters have already discussed regarding NJ/PA transport, which I already have read about and know the various legal methods.which methods? Mine is a bit more subtle. While at our PA residence, I cannot exit the neighborhood the house is in without crossing the front parking lot of a school. By all means it is 100% within 1000' of the school.

With a Florida non-resident permit, and no NJ permit, I understand that I cannot get a PA LTCF. correct I am presuming that this means, if I wanted to for instance concealed carry while going to the movies/store/hunting/whatever, I would need to drive through the school zone and then retrieve my secured weapon from the trunk after I passed through it? correct - weapon unloaded/locked container. A locked trunk inaccessible from the passenger compartment would suffice. Bear in mind that there may be many other school zones that you pass through in your travels.

Followup question, when I leave NJ and head to the Pocono house, does the PA law state to pass through that school zone and get to my house that I need to have it in a locked CASE, or is a trigger lock AND in the closed trunk OK? your concern is not Pa law but Federal law [posted below] Pa law only effects possession ON school property, Federal within 1000' of school grounds requires unloaded/unlocked. With an out-of-state CCW there are no vehicular transport issues with Pa law while off school grounds except that longarms must be unloaded.Sounds like I should have bought a hard-case instead of a soft-one (not lockable) for transport between houses if I need to specifically lock the case.

Thanks!

Blue inserts mine.

Excerpt from 18 USC 922(q) (Gun Free School Zone Act of 1995):

(2)(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

(B) Subparagraph (A) shall not apply to the possession of a firearm-

(i) on private property not part of school grounds;

(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtain such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
(iii) which is-

(I) not loaded; and

(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack which is on a motor vehicle;

(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;

(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;

(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or

(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.

**Doc7** · February 2nd, 2013, 02:08 PM

Any takers, or was I just spot-on with my analysis of the situation? Also still looking for an answer on the locked case vs trigger lock in the trunk question.

Thanks!

**Doc7** · February 2nd, 2013, 02:12 PM

Doh! Someone posts right before I respond! Sorry, and thanks!

Regarding this from your reply:

Here is where my situation gets interesting, even more so than the other complications other posters have already discussed regarding NJ/PA transport, which I already have read about and know the various legal methods.which methods?

When in NJ I can only transport the gun from my residence to a shooting range, or other exemptions. So to get to my house in the Poconos, when I load my firearms into the trunk (unloaded) my destination is the shooting range, which conveniently is located in the same private gated community that the vacation home is located. Once I leave NJ and am in PA I have an entire slew of law-abiding firearm transportation and usage options open to me at this time, though of course to comply with NJ law my destination will remain the range and that is not inconvenient as I have no other interesting stops or detours along the way to said range and would love to shoot a few rounds before heading to the house. The gun(s) will never be loaded/concealed/etc while in NJ and only used for law abiding purposes, and transported via law-abiding methods.

That pesky gun free school zone is going to make non-resident CCW nearly worthless to me, I think the risks outweigh the benefits when it comes to, "leave house, drive through school zone, get to destination, remove firearm from vehicle and load it in parking lot of destination". Loading and unloading the gun in random parking lots throughout the Pocono area just doesn't seem like a great idea. It's not like I ever plan on being pulled over and searched or anything while going through GFSZ but I am going to abide by the laws to keep what rights I do have available to me and promote responsible ownership.

Sounds like now I have TWO pieces of legislation to push for with regards to PA, one for the Feds to change this law, and one for PA to make it legal to hunt with a semi-auto .22 rifle.

**tl_3237** · February 2nd, 2013, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by Doc7

Doh! Someone posts right before I respond! Sorry, and thanks!

Regarding this from your reply:

Here is where my situation gets interesting, even more so than the other complications other posters have already discussed regarding NJ/PA transport, which I already have read about and know the various legal methods.which methods?

When in NJ I can only transport the gun from my residence to a shooting range, or other exemptions. So to get to my house in the Poconos, when I load my firearms into the trunk (unloaded) my destination is the shooting range, which conveniently is located in the same private gated community that the vacation home is located. Once I leave NJ and am in PA I have an entire slew of law-abiding firearm transportation and usage options open to me at this time, though of course to comply with NJ law my destination will remain the range and that is not inconvenient as I have no other interesting stops or detours along the way to said range and would love to shoot a few rounds before heading to the house. The gun(s) will never be loaded/concealed/etc while in NJ and only used for law abiding purposes, and transported via law-abiding methods.

You would also have to go to the PA range as the last stop on your return trip to NJ.

That pesky gun free school zone is going to make non-resident CCW nearly worthless to me, I think the risks outweigh the benefits when it comes to, "leave house, drive through school zone, get to destination, remove firearm from vehicle and load it in parking lot of destination". Loading and unloading the gun in random parking lots throughout the Pocono area just doesn't seem like a great idea. It's not like I ever plan on being pulled over and searched or anything while going through GFSZ but I am going to abide by the laws to keep what rights I do have available to me and promote responsible ownership.

I'm unaware of any cases where the GFSZA has been charged absent other criminal activity but nonetheless it is law and does make lawful use of your FL CCW quite restrictive especially in urban/suburban areas.

Sounds like now I have TWO pieces of legislation to push for with regards to PA, one for the Feds to change this law, and one for PA to make it legal to hunt with a semi-auto .22 rifle.

IIRC there are bills to repeal the GFSZA currently in Congress.
see: H.R.133 -- Citizens Protection Act of 2013 (Introduced in House - IH)

Blue inserts mine.

**ungawa** · February 2nd, 2013, 03:43 PM

I have a lot of control about walking into a Post Office and I don't have to worry about doing it by accident. I have very little control about whether or not I end up within 1000 feet of a school by accident.

The federal GFSZA is a real law, with real teeth. But as you point out, it pretty much makes carry on an out of state license nearly impossible. Personally, I don't worry about it for that reason. If I am out of state and I see a school while driving, I will try to detour to put a little space between me and it. That's about it. I'm not going to plot them all out on a map to plan my route or refrain from carrying when out of state.

Also, as previously mentioned, there don't seem to be many (if any) examples of people being charged with this absent some other crime. Finally, everytime I try to gauge LEO opinion on the subject, they tell me they generally don't enforce federal laws and particularly the more obscure ones like this.

So, I'll do my best, but I am going to carry, and I am not going to be paranoid about it.

This is DEFINITELY not legal advice, nor any advice whatsoever. Just saying how I look at it, and I am probably not alone.

**knight0334** · February 2nd, 2013, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by ungawa

I have a lot of control about walking into a Post Office and I don't have to worry about doing it by accident. I have very little control about whether or not I end up within 1000 feet of a school by accident.

The federal GFSZA is a real law, with real teeth. But as you point out, it pretty much makes carry on an out of state license nearly impossible. Personally, I don't worry about it for that reason. If I am out of state and I see a school while driving, I will try to detour to put a little space between me and it. That's about it. I'm not going to plot them all out on a map to plan my route or refrain from carrying when out of state.

Also, as previously mentioned, there don't seem to be many (if any) examples of people being charged with this absent some other crime. Finally, everytime I try to gauge LEO opinion on the subject, they tell me they generally don't enforce federal laws and particularly the more obscure ones like this.

So, I'll do my best, but I am going to carry, and I am not going to be paranoid about it.

This is DEFINITELY not legal advice, nor any advice whatsoever. Just saying how I look at it, and I am probably not alone.

Plotting them isn't necessary. The GFSZA requires you have knowledge of or reasons to believe a school is within 1000ft. By plotting them out, you force yourself to comply with the 1000ft, licensing, or encasement rules.

(2)(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

Overly educating one's self has setbacks at times.