Safir Arms T14

[cruzans]

I have nothing but 13 round mags, but I'm not sure they are worth having yet. I've found that the Safir .410 follower is designed to lift the front nose of the shell much higher than a standard AR type follower in order to feed the ramp properly. However, once you load more than 5 or 6 shells there isn't enough spring pressure to keep the nose high on the top shell... So I took apart a 13 round Safir mag, which is designed very much like the Magpul mags. What I found was the spring is shorter and has less spring rate than a standard 30 round Magpul spring. This is even though the 13 round mag is physically longer than a 30 round 5.56 mag... Plus, the bottom plate and follower aren't attached to the spring like with a Magpul design. So the spring can float around a bit on either end and cause binding. The Safir follower wont fit into a Magpul mag housing, at least not without some modifications. However, you could probably put a better spring from a 30 or 40 round 5.56 mag into the 13 round mag and perhaps decrease feed problems when loaded above 5-6 shells.

Thanks for the tip. I first found with the 13 round mags that only certain 410 rounds fit - I was surprised that not all 2 1/2" shells are actually 2 1/2"! I finally was able to get a listing from Safir on rounds that would fit, and rounds that would not. Then I found the issue with what you are saying, shells would not feed properly. Think I'll look for some cheap 30/40 round mags and try swapping out the spring.
Thanks!

[ranchdude]

I knew going in to my purchase that there was a limited selection of US made shells that would fit the T-14 mag and feed properly. But I was lucky enough to get a couple full cases of the Turkish made ATI slugs when they ditched them to the surplus market so I figured it was worth it. I also got some of the Federal High Brass and Premium Handgun ammo made for the Judge, and it fits pretty well.

I was severely disappointed in Safir Arms after it ditched us all here in the states. They were in the process of opening a US manufacturing plant in NJ, which is why I believe they parted ways with ATI. But then about 2 years ago they suddenly disappeared after they got the building and their FFL, and now they have no US presence for parts or warranty. It looks like they're selling mostly to the Russian market now.

I'm hoping someone starts producing US made replacement parts and ammo for these guns. They're a lot of fun, but could use some refining.

[will6336]

Can you mod a magpull 30 rnd mag to work in safir ? Would hate to play around with the only mag

[cruzans]

I'll try to play around this weekend. I have a few 13 rounders so I'll take one and replace spring then see if another magpul or similar can be adapted!

[ranchdude]

Well the major difference between the Safir mag and a normal 5.56/.223 mag is of course the follower, and then the extra set of feed lips on the front of the Safir mag. Although I'm not entirely convinced the extra lips are needed. However, the Safir follower is entirely different than a standard follower. It has a concave section to center the .410 shell and a large angle of attack to the feed ramp to guide the nose of the shell in. The Safir follower wouldn't fit into a Magpul M2 housing. Someone might be able to machine an aluminum follower to match the Safir top side design and fit it into a standard 30 or 40 round mag housing though. I'm thinking of trying it myself. The ASC 40 round mags are pretty cheap these days, might be worth a shot. Might make for about a 15 round .410 mag lol

[ranchdude]

A few things I've found out about my T-14. My T-14 is the flat top S2 version with a integrated quad rail and a 13.5" barrel (registered as SBS)

The little flip up lever device by the upper's rear pin attachment that the keeps the bolt from coming out isn't some kind of over-travel limiter. It is what actuates the ejector as the bolt moves to the rear...

The ejector assembly on my T-14 is very poorly designed and poorly made, it is rough and does not rotate freely within the bolt carrier. This causes drag and can keep the bolt from fully engaging into the barrel extension. I plan on polishing this and then coating it and the entire bolt assembly with Cerakote Micro Slick dry film lubricant to try to smooth up the action.

That little ejector lever actually pushes down onto the lower with each shot. This is a bad design, it should have had a pivot point on the rear instead of the front, that way it would draw it up against the upper instead of pushing down against the lower and forcing the two apart. I plan to address this (and other issues) in the future by modifying a standard AR upper for use on my T-14 setup.

One of those other issues, my T-14 upper will not accept a standard AR charging handle. It appears the slot which is cut into the upper is not at the correct height. The plastic charging handle shows evidence of this misalignment on the little ears that extend out from the slide, they are worn below the level of the slide itself. This is why a standard handle won't fit. I could modify a charging handle to fit pretty easy by milling down those ears, but I need a US made upper on this for Section 922r compliance, and I want to be able to use a standard unmodified charging handle, so I'm going to try to kill two birds with one stone and modify a standard M4 upper for use on the T-14.

I've seen many people ask, but I've never seen an absolute answer to this anywhere. So I've taken mine apart to verify it. The barrel nut on my T-14 is the round cylinder type for use with the aluminum quad rail. It has no means to use a wrench on it what so ever. You can only remove it and put it on by using a large locking pliers. They could have drilled a hole or two for a spanner wrench, but they didn't. Therefore there is no way to torque it to any spec. I plan on removing this nut and using a Midwest Industries rail which uses it's own proprietary nut for attachment. That nut it is very close to what Safir used for a nut, except it has teeth on it for attaching a barrel wrench that are located close to the upper instead of being on the barrel end of the nut like a standard AR nut. However, the good news is the threads on the T-14 upper will accept a standard AR barrel nut, I was truly expecting it to be some whacky metric thread. The T-14 barrel extension is quite different than a standard AR. I can't tell if the barrel is screwed into the extension, of it is is pinned. I hope it isn't just pinned. There isn't much to the extension as they have two slots cut on opposite sides for the piston slide rod to push back the bolt carrier. However, it appears the T-14 barrel extension (with slide extensions) will fit into a standard AR upper although the feed ramp area will need to be ground to accept the single stack .410 shell feeding vs. the dual M4 ramps. The barrel extension is also ground at a very sharp angle, and when I say sharp, the edge is as sharp as a razor so be careful handling it out of the receiver!

I have still not figured out how to remove the piston and slide rod from the barrel. I'm not sure how they have the forward part if the piston assembly attached to the barrel, but it appears to be very creative... I found one video showing the disassembly but it was such poor quality I can't make out the details. It appears you have to push the front of the piston assembly towards the rear and remove some type of clip. With the flash hider removed, the entire piston assembly then slides forward off the barrel. I will update more as I know. And I'm not sure if you can post pictures here, but I will try post some as I go through the disassembly and modifications of the AR upper...

I hope this helps someone out there looking for information, that's why I'm doing it...

[ranchdude]

Well I have some more magazine information for anyone still interested. I don't seem to be able to add photos here unless I have them hosted elsewhere, so I guess I'm not going to be adding any right now. Its a shame because it would sure help explain what I'm saying if you could see it.
(Photos now being added)

The T-14 13 round mag spring is about 1/2 shorter than a 30 round Magpul pmag M2 spring. The body of the 13 round mag is 8 inches, where the pmag is 7 inches. So in comparison you can see the 13 round mag spring is a little short for it's length compared to the pmag. The 13 round Safir mag spring has only 11 loops, where the pmag has 15 loops. The 13 round mag has lighter gauge spring wire than the pmag. So, the 13 round mag spring definitely has less spring rate than the pmag spring. So putting a better 30 round spring into a Safir 13 round mag may help feeding issues. Also, I found the Safir springs are not straight. They twist along their length and will not lay flat on their sides. All my other mag springs lie flat. This twist can cause binding in the mag housing as the spring is compressed which could also cause feeding problems. I suspect this is a part of the issue along with the length and spring rate. So replacing the spring would help get rid of that problem as well. I was able to work the Safir spring by hand, tweaking each loop slightly, and I got it to stay much flatter which seemed to help. Also cross drilling a hole across the follower extension, and the plate extension, as a place for the mag spring to clip in to like on a normal magazine, may help keep the spring from floating around inside the mag housing and causing more binding. So the first thing to try, put in a 30 round mag spring into a 13 round mag, and see if that helps your feeding issues. Even if the longer spring keeps you from loading all 13 rounds, if you can fire 10 or more dependably, its a plus I think... And you may be able to trim the 30 round spring a bit, and still have more spring rate.



Top ASC 40 round SS, middle Safir 13 round poly, bottom Magpul Pmag M2 30 round poly.

The Safir .410 follower is a whole different animal from a normal follower. It is thicker top to bottom, and the spring doesn't go inside the follower like a normal .223/5.56 follower. So, this may be why the spring is a little shorter. (However, I still think it's too short and doesn't have enough spring rate...) The Safir follower actually has three pieces to it. The main body of the follower, a small (weak) spring, and a small protruding extension that this spring pushes out against the inside rear of the mag body. I'm not sure what this extension is for, it may be something to do with forcing the bolt catch up when the mag is empty or it may be a leveler of some sort. But on my mags it doesn't seem to function very freely. The spring is too weak to force it out without binding. So I'm not sure it really doing much of anything useful.



A Safir follower "almost" fits in a pmag body. There is a raised rib on the inside front of a pmag mag body which keeps the follower from fitting in. If you slotted the Safir follower to accept this rib, it may work. But the rib in the pmag may keep a .410 shell from fitting in the mag body. So, it may be that this rib would have to be somehow removed from the pmag body (and the follower may then fit without modification). Not that any of this will gain you much because a 30 round pmag would probably only hold about 10-11 rounds of .410 and I'm still not sure that without the forward lips it would feed the .410 shells properly, but it might. But if all you have is 5 round mags, doing this might get you up to 10-11. And by using a p-mag housing, with a p-mag spring it may feed a full mag better, and 2 out of the 3 parts of the mag would then be US made for Section 922r compliance. Which would probably help keep your foreign part count under 10 with a US made lower so that you can legally use those high capacity mags.

A Safir follower doesn't come close to fitting a standard aluminum or stainless mag because the tabs for the bottom plate interfere far too much with the design of the follower. Which makes sense since the Safir mags are obviously rough copies of a pmag design.



So, if I were going to design a follower to use with a pmag, I'd probably use the primary design of the pmag follower as far a the shape looking down from the top, and the design of the underside of the follower, but then add a concave ramp on top like the Safir follower uses. And if I find that spring loaded extension actually does something useful, well I'd have to incorporate that into the design as well.

The good news is that p-mags are now available in a 40 round version. And if I could make a follower to work in a pmag, we might end up with a 15 round .410 magazine. And that is what I'm going to try to do. And if the follower is made in the US, well then that's one less foreign part to count!

I'll let you know how it all works out...

[ranchdude]

More misc. info...

I was finally able to figure out how to get the piston assembly removed from the barrel... I bought my T-14 used so I didn't get a manual. I have a lot of pictures to post once I get them uploaded someplace. It is very easy to disassemble for those who haven't done it already.



The T-14 barrel extension isn't a true barrel extension, it is actually part of the barrel itself. This is good and bad, bad for trying to re-barrel at any point in the future, but good for one less foreign part to count as well.




The flash hider threading is unfortunately metric, 16mm-1.0mm pitch. It is a right hand thread. You'll find some 16mm CW flash hiders, muzzle brakes and even suppressors out there on the interweb but be aware, they are intended only for airsoft. However this is also very close to 5/8" diameter. You might be able chase a 5/8-24 threaded muzzle device with a 16mm-1.0 tap and get a fairly close, although not perfect, fit even though the 16mm-1.0 pitch is actually closer to 26 threads per inch.



Bore diameter at the muzzle end is 10.07mm or 0.3965".

Barrel diameter (on 13.5" barrel) is 16.07mm 0.6325" at the muzzle end, 0.638" at the gas port, and 0.747" at the barrel extension.



Chamber diameter is approximate 0.4715". Chamber depth is hard to measure accurately but just over 2.5 inches with a tapered transition to the bore.

FYI I saw a brand new old stock T-14 complete BCG sell on Gunbroker this week for $250... Wow! Came with a firing pin. I guess someone needed it pretty bad. You could get a nice AR NiB BCG for that price.

I confirmed a Federal 2 1/2in .410 shell will not fit into a Pmag M2 because of the raised rib inside the front of the mag body... Dammit. It appears I will have to sacrifice one Pmag to see if I can make a Safir follower fit by removing that rib.

[ranchdude]

I got some very interesting information from a gentleman this morning who was involved in liquidating Safir's assets when they closed their NJ facility. It seems it was the state of NJ which made things so difficult for them to try to set up to manufacture that they just left everything there, closed the doors and went back to Turkey...

So at least now we know why they left, but why they chose The People's Republic of NJ as a place to try to manufacture firearms is beyond me, they should have come to are more firearm friendly state such as PA.

Anyway, unfortunately they've already sold off most all the remaining stock that was left after Safir left the country. They used the parts to assembly working uppers and sold them off. They said the castings were very rough and needed a lot of fitting in order to function well.

However I did pick up his last barrel, so have a NOS 17 3/4" barrel for sale if anyone is interested, I'm asking $200 for it shipped. It would need to have a flash hider pinned and welded on to be legal, otherwise you'd have to pay $200 for a SBS stamp and wait a year for that.

I also got some more information about the Safir 13 round poly magazines. They said that if you take the mags apart and scrape all the flash left over from the molding process on the edges of the follower, and around the feed lips, with a razor they will feed much better. And he also confirmed the spring twist issue I mentioned previously and said straightening the twist of the spring will also help with feed issues.

Even this guy wasn't aware with the fact that the Safir poly mag follower was a 3 piece design. I guess that small spring loaded piece sticks so badly that most people never realize that it is supposed to move... So cleaning up that opening and the piece itself with a razor should help that function better as well.

[ranchdude]

I found some information on Gunbroker from a man selling a T-14 he assembled from parts. He's also selling Lancer Systems (Allentown, PA) polymer mags which he's had modified to work in a T-14, calling them a 10 round mags. I'm assuming these are based on a 30 round .223/5.56 mag.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...to-toe-review/

The seller's name is cdnite1, and he states " It also includes three 10 round Lancer magazines that have been custom modified for the 410 shell. It has been "tuned" and checked out by a leading Gun Smith/Armorer and shoot great! The bolt will still accept the impossible to get Safir 410 magazine. I can make more modified Lancer magazines if you want them at $65 a piece."

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=415457347

Pricey, but an option...

I've never had any of these mags to look at, but I'm wondering if these mags have the raised rib inside like the Pmags. If not, that would make them a better candidate for conversion to .410.