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Thread: Safir Arms T14

  1. #121
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    Default Re: Safir Arms T14

    Well there isn't much chatter here but I'll go on rambling just the same...

    I had a little extra money this paycheck (thanks to the Republican tax reform) so I reinvested it into our economy.

    I picked up some of the IFC 9 round and some of the ATI 15 round mags.

    20180201_235208.jpg

    I have to say that it looks like ATI did put some thought into their new magazines. The bolt catch tail hook on the follower looks like it will work much more reliably. The wall thickness of the ATI magazine is much thicker than either the Safir or IFC. And, I was wondering how they were going to try to keep a constant pressure on a 15 round magazine as it runs close to empty and to my surprise they actually appear to have a progressive rate spring in the magazine. Actual engineering!

    The IFC magazines are pretty close to Safir in design although it appears the polymer used in the magazine body might be a bit better. They are using the same design for the tail hook that was used on the Safir, so they probably won't lock back the bolt any better than the Safir magazines did. There are a few holes added in the magazine body to see how full the magazine is although there are no round count indicators, more like full, 3/4, 1/2 and 1/4 full.

    I'm still going to be surprised if these 15 round magazines feed well (even in an Omni Hybrid), but if they do at least I'll be pleasantly surprised. Full disclosure, the 15 round magazines are extremely long, not really practical at all. Although how practical is a .410 AR anyway right? It will be 15 rounds of "hell ya" which even the citizens of the Peoples Republic of New Jersey can enjoy (for now)...

    And although the 9 round magazines aren't all that much more than 5, it's more than nothing, which is what a lot of people out there had when they bought a T14 without magazines.

    So it is definitely looking up for those of us with a T14 provided these run well in a T14, which I think they may.

    [Edit] Here is a comparison of the size of the IFC 9, Safir 13 and ATI 15 side by side.

    20180202_095553.jpg

    I'm hoping to get to the range this weekend.

    RD Out...
    Last edited by ranchdude; February 2nd, 2018 at 11:30 AM.

  2. #122
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    Default Re: Safir Arms T14

    Thanks RD. Eager to hear how the ATI's run.

  3. #123
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    Default Re: Safir Arms T14

    OK, well I finally did it...

    922(r) Compliance Regarding a Safir T14 Shotgun

    http://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.ph...57#post3719657

    RD Out...

  4. #124
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    Default Re: Safir Arms T14

    Well the range testing had mixed results...

    20180205_151501.jpg

    I switched my T14 back to using the Safir Upper and front rail combo so my results would be based on an unmodified upper (other than I've replaced the flash hider with a domestic part).

    Before testing I disassembled and cleaned all the magazines, gave them a light spray of silicone spray on the inside of the magazine body and the follower and then reassembled them.

    I used ATI's .410 rifled slugs for my testing. These were sold by ATI specifically for the T14 and therefore should run without any issue. (Not to mention, these are some of the hottest .410 slug loads I've ever fired and I wish they still sold them).

    20180205_191034.jpg

    And I think pretty much everyone here already knows that you have to run the T14 with a LOT of lubrication on the bolt carrier group. I used Lucas Extreme Duty Gun Oil on my BCG.

    The temperature outside was about 28 degrees on the day I tested.

    The ATI magazines insert hard into the magazine well even with the bolt locked back. I thought it was spring pressure at first, but it's actually part of the design of their magazine. They have a squared off ramp on the magazine catch on the in-going side of the catch. They release just fine because it is ramped normally on the outgoing side. This is the same on both the 5 and 15 round magazines. You have to insert the magazine as far as you can then give them a healthy slap up with your open hand to seat them in place. I really don't care for this part of their design at all.

    The 5 round ATI magazine will not work for me.. They simply have too much spring pressure and it forces the top shell up hard into the bolt as it tries to slide forward. The bolt actually bites into the plastic casing of the shell. These are a total no-go without some modifications.

    The 9 round IFC magazine hold 9 rounds exactly. The indicator holes I mentioned previously are completely useless, they don't tell you much of anything... The magazines fit into the mag well somewhat snug but tap in pretty much like a fully loaded 30 round 5.56 polymer magazine does. And they will probably wear in and fit better with some use. Fully loaded with 9 there is a bit of drag on the bolt on the first several rounds. I had to use the forward assist to help get the bolt locked into place on the first round. However after the first round I fired through all 9 rounds with only one stoppage due to a half ejected shell casing. I don't think that was a result of the magazine in any way.

    20180205_151203.jpg

    That said, the IFC magazine ran at least as well as a 13 round Safir magazine for me. And by that I mean it ran most of the time, with some stoppages. I expect they will get better with some use. The bolt catch also ran like a Safir, meaning it did not hold the bolt open on an empty magazine... Overall, I feel they were worth the $25 I paid for them although I think they should be less than the $23 I paid for the 15 round ATI magazines. Also, since these are imported magazines (supposedly from Italy but more likely Turkey by way of Italy), they still count as 3 imported parts as far as 922(r) compliance is concerned (magazine body, follower and floor plate).

    20180205_151152.jpg

    The 15 round ATI magazine holds 15 rounds exactly. When fully loaded with 15 rounds I could not get a round to chamber with the bolt latched back, loading the magazine, then releasing the bolt catch. Nor could I get it to work with 14 rounds loaded. There just seems to be too much pressure which keeps the bolt from sliding forward properly. However, once down to 13 rounds it did strip a round from the magazine and chamber it, and then it proceeded to run well until about half way through the magazine at which time I got several failures to load again with the bolt only closing about half way. I attempted to strip one round at a time but ended up having the same issue over and over. After reaching the end of the magazine, I reloaded all the stripped rounds back in (6 or 7), reinserted the magazine with the bolt locked back, released the bolt catch and it then stripped the top round from the magazine, chambered it, and then ran until empty at which time the bolt actually locked back!

    I'm not sure how many of the problems I was experiencing where simply problems with my T14 just not running as well as it should. It has been a while since I've used it. After firing both magazines I noticed the Safir front rail had started sliding forward on the barrel nut. This is why I dislike the Safir front rail and barrel nut design. You can't properly tighten either of them. Also, this was the first time I've ever fired my T14 at near freezing temperatures so that might have played into the failures to some degree although it really should run at these temperatures without an issue.

    20180205_151244.jpg

    The failure to be able to chamber a round with a fully loaded magazine appears to be the result of just too much spring pressure. This is probably because they need to make sure there is enough spring pressure to keep rounds moving up as the magazine nears being empty. Maybe the plated bolt carrier on the ATI Omni Hybrid .410 has less drag and can operate properly with the added spring pressure, however my T14 can not. The ATI design certainly appears to duplicate a Safir magazine almost exactly which may be part of the problem since Safir 13 round magazines don't feed all that well either. However, the ATI magazines do raise the bolt catch and hold back the bolt carrier on an empty magazine. These may work better with some repeated use, or possibly some minor tweaks. These 15 round magazines are really too long for any bench shooting. I had to have my bipod raised up to the maximum position to be able to clear the table at which point you had to stand behind the firearm in order to shoot it. These are pretty much for standing unsupported firing position only... They are probably worth $23 for one or two, just to find out if they'll work in your T14. (Your results may vary)

    RD out...
    Last edited by ranchdude; February 5th, 2018 at 10:45 PM.

  5. #125
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    Default Re: Safir Arms T14

    Holy Long Freak'n Magazine Batman!

    The ATI 15 round magazine mounted in my Seekins/Safir T14...

    20180205_201930.jpg
    Last edited by ranchdude; February 5th, 2018 at 10:43 PM.

  6. #126
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    Default Re: Safir Arms T14

    Well the IFC .410 ARU is really saturating the market. There are at least a dozen on gunbroker right now. They seem more available than the ATI .410 Omni Hybrid.

    IFC is pretty insistent that their uppers are made in Italy and not Turkey by a company called Iron Armi.

    https://internationalfirearmcorporat...armi-of-italy/

    I'm starting to wonder if ATI used AI to supply the major parts for their Omni Hybrid and then AI decided to just launch an upper on their own. ATI claims they have applied for a patent on their .410 but I find it hard to believe they'll get one since they "took" their design from Safir. Perhaps Safir either sold them the design, didn't have a foreign patent or they simply aren't defending it, I don't know. But if ATI gets the US patent then I believe the IFC will soon disappear since it also appears to be based on the same design...

    I was shying away from the IFC upper after ARBro brought it and their magazines to our attention, simply because I thought it was still made in Turkey by Safir. If it has actually been refined by the Italian Iron Armi company, it might be work a look. Those Italians have a good reputation for gun manufacturing. The IFC uppers sell right around $350-450. The IFC does not appear to have (at least not that I can see from pictures or videos) the funky non-standard upper receiver that the Safir had, so that likely means it also doesn't have the funky front rail design either...

    I may have to give the IFC a try and see just how interchangeable it is with the Safir. If I do, I'll let you all know what I find out. If someone decides to buy an Omni Hybrid I hope you'll do the same.

    BTW, ARBro if you want the drawings or solidworks model for the ejector lever assembly I made, just PM me. I have a few corrections to make on the drawings, but I'll get it out to you once that's done...
    Last edited by ranchdude; February 7th, 2018 at 12:31 PM.

  7. #127
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    Default Re: Safir Arms T14

    Everyone is probably starting to appreciate the year I was hardly on here lol...

    Anyway, I was cleaning up my T14 from the magazine testing and I discovered part of the reason why it wasn't running as well as it should.

    The all domestic lower which I was using on it seems to be too high quality for the low quality metals used in the T14 BCG. The leading edge of the trigger which is contacted by the carrier as it travels back to eject the spent shell and re-cock the trigger, was actually too hard and sharp and was cutting into the bottom of the carrier causing gouges and scratches. You could even see where the trigger bounced and contacted it further down the carrier. The Safir carrier is definitely not hardened metal.

    So, I put a radius on that leading edge of the trigger, and I filed down the area that was roughed up on the carrier and polished it smooth again. I also noticed that the area on the carrier just behind the bolt had a sharp edge on it from the factory, and that is what seemed to be grabbing at the shell on top of the magazine as it moved forward to chamber the round it just stripped. So I beveled and polished that area as well.

    It was nice out today so I was able to do some more testing with the ATI, IFC and Safir magazines and also test out my BCG modifications.

    What I found was, those modifications helped a lot but they don't solve all the issues with the ATI and IFC magazines.

    I can say that both those magazines still have a bit too much spring pressure for my T14. However, the IFC 9 round magazine runs pretty reliably as an 8 round magazine, and the ATI 15 round magazine runs pretty reliably as a 10 or 11 round magazine. The Safir 13 round magazine still runs better than either of those but it too has it's problems but those problems seem to be a result of too little spring pressure. The Safir 13 round magazine tends to fire well fully loaded, then fails later as the magazine nears empty.

    So the ATI being able to fire 10 or 11 rounds reliably, and lock back the bolt, is still a win to me. You can go through a lot of shells pretty fast at 10 rounds per magazine. And it sure is fun! The biggest negative for me for the ATI 15 round magazine is how long it is, especially if you can't use all of it. Perhaps the spring can be modified to make it work better in the T14.

    And I forgot to mention that the ATI 15 round magazine comes with a loader which works pretty well on all three magazines. I think the reason they include it is because it's nearly impossible to load their magazine without it.

    And I also found that its very easy to insert the IFC magazine in too far. It will go right past the magazine catch with a normal slap up on the magazine. This can be a real pain in the ass to clear. And although it will hold 9 rounds, it is a tight fit to get that 9th shell in. However, loading it with 8 works well both for loading it and unloading it the fun way.

    RD Out...

  8. #128
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    Default Re: Safir Arms T14

    Thanks RD. All very good info to have. I'm really hoping I can get to the range this week to try out my ATI 15 round mag. If the rain will just let up.

  9. #129
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    Default Re: Safir Arms T14

    Well, after many years of on and off work, I've finally fully completed my Seekins/Safir 922(r) conversion to a minimum of 5 foreign parts. I used the Midwest Industries suppressor front rail, which uses a knurled barrel nut and a nice locking plate design for retention and anti-rotation. The barrel nut is rather long compared to a standard AR barrel nut, so I had to source a shorter spring for the piston assembly. I was able to find a suitable replacement from Lee Spring which has the proper spring rate, ID and OD. I had to modify the Midwest barrel nut with a spring retainer counter-bore to keep the spring centered on the nut.

    20180318_170349.jpg20180318_170402.jpg

    I also successfully modified the .458 SOCOM upper with an suitable feed ramp to accommodate the single stack .410 magazines.

    I then bored a new .458 SOCOM flash hider over size and sleeved it with a 16mm insert to thread on the Safir barrel, then silver soldered that in. This is a somewhat nicer fit than simply re-tapping a flash hider to 16mm (which can be done, but probably should be held in place with red 272 Loctite.)

    Those were my last hurdles on this project. Here's the finished project. I may add a red dot and nicer iron sights, but for the effective range of this setup I think the front mounted laser will suffice along with the close range aperture of the iron sights.

    Seekins/Safir T14 .410 SBS

    20180320_085951.jpg

    RD out...

  10. #130
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    Default Re: Safir Arms T14

    I know this is an old post but I just bought a ATI/Safir arms T-14 Classic and wondered if anyone knew of any place where I might buy magazines for it
    Thanks in advance to anyone that sees this.

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