27, Not 26

**smitty56** · December 22nd, 2012, 12:11 PM

When people talk about the 26 victims who were murdered, please correct them and say there were 27.
The first victim was the crazy gunman's mother who was shot 4 times as she slept in her bed.

http://news.yahoo.com/few-memorials-...074052159.html

She was a victim too.

**tacticalreload** · December 22nd, 2012, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by smitty56

When people talk about the 26 victims who were murdered, please correct them and say there were 27.
The first victim was the crazy gunman's mother who was shot 4 times as she slept in her bed.

http://news.yahoo.com/few-memorials-...074052159.html

She was a victim too.

A lot of people, myself included, feel that she was a major part of the problem. If the facts that are out are actually true, then she shares a lot of the blame.

**customloaded** · December 22nd, 2012, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by tacticalreload

A lot of people, myself included, feel that she was a major part of the problem. If the facts that are out are actually true, then she shares a lot of the blame.

Well, lets condemn a dead women who was killed at the hands of a mentally disturbed person who just happened to be her son. I haven't followed what she did or didn't do. If she left guns unsecured, how many of us do? Seriously, how many self defense minded folks leave a gun unsecured outside of a safe? I know I do. My wife does. When I'm home, I have, usually, 1 pistol and either a shotgun or AR unsecured from my safe so I may, if in the time of need, access it quickly.

If mom, was shot and killed in bed, how many of us go to sleep with a self defense weapon or two, readily available for us instead of in a safe?

Just wondering?

In addition, how many of us have taught our children to shoot? How many children with a disability of some nature have been taught to shoot? Shooting challenges mental focus capabilities, some physical strength and endurance, and upon success, shows an immediate positive outcome which increases a persons self confidence and self esteem.

So, what exactly did mom do wrong with her child?

CL

**Manxdriver** · December 22nd, 2012, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by customloaded

Well, lets condemn a dead women who was killed at the hands of a mentally disturbed person who just happened to be her son. I haven't followed what she did or didn't do. If she left guns unsecured, how many of us do? Seriously, how many self defense minded folks leave a gun unsecured outside of a safe? I know I do. My wife does. When I'm home, I have, usually, 1 pistol and either a shotgun or AR unsecured from my safe so I may, if in the time of need, access it quickly.

If mom, was shot and killed in bed, how many of us go to sleep with a self defense weapon or two, readily available for us instead of in a safe?

Just wondering?

In addition, how many of us have taught our children to shoot? How many children with a disability of some nature have been taught to shoot? Shooting challenges mental focus capabilities, some physical strength and endurance, and upon success, shows an immediate positive outcome which increases a persons self confidence and self esteem.

So, what exactly did mom do wrong with her child?

CL

Where to start? She left a few (we'll never find out how many exactly , but it was at least three) guns, unsecured, for her mentally deficient son to get hold of. Not one, SEVERAL, guns unsecured! She also left a shitload of ammo unsecured.
Apparently, she did nothing to protect her neighbors from the evil little crotch-dropping that she spawned.
Your question: "How many children with a disability of some nature have been taught to shoot?" Disability, sure! Mental instability? HOW MENTALLY RETARDED WOULD YOU HAVE TO BE TO PUT A LOADED GUN IN A MENTALLY UNSTABLE PERSON'S HANDS? Further, just how irresponsible would you have to be to leave that gun, with ammo available (reality: the guns were probably loaded) within the availablility range of a kid who has proven hmself to be mentally unstable/defective?
Wow, just which side are you on anyway? You certainly made some very compelling arguments for not allowing you to have access to guns in just that one post alone. If you cannot be trusted to keep guns out of reach of kids, mentally defectives, burglars, and other cretins of society, how can you expect us to let you go on having access? THAT is the argument an 'anti-gunner' would make after reading from your post.
I don't mean to offend you. I just needed to point out some things you obviously missed. I keep a few guns within arms reach in 'fast opening' safes at night. You may get in by breaking one open, but I'd hear you and respond before you got access. My dog also would be on you before you got to the guns. My dog wakes me if my daughter decides to get up and use the restroom at night. My point: there is absolutely ZERO excuses for that kid getting his hands on a loaded gun! We, as responsible gun owners, need to do EVERYTHING we can to present ourselves as responsible adults and 'good people' of society.
The last thing we need is to come off looking like a bunch of haphazard, fool-hardy buffoons with guns.

**tacticalreload** · December 22nd, 2012, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by customloaded

Well, lets condemn a dead women who was killed at the hands of a mentally disturbed person who just happened to be her son. I haven't followed what she did or didn't do. If she left guns unsecured, how many of us do? Seriously, how many self defense minded folks leave a gun unsecured outside of a safe? I know I do. My wife does. When I'm home, I have, usually, 1 pistol and either a shotgun or AR unsecured from my safe so I may, if in the time of need, access it quickly.

If mom, was shot and killed in bed, how many of us go to sleep with a self defense weapon or two, readily available for us instead of in a safe?

Just wondering?

In addition, how many of us have taught our children to shoot? How many children with a disability of some nature have been taught to shoot? Shooting challenges mental focus capabilities, some physical strength and endurance, and upon success, shows an immediate positive outcome which increases a persons self confidence and self esteem.

So, what exactly did mom do wrong with her child?

CL

You mentioned that you haven't followed what she did or didn't do. Maybe you should look into it before painting her as an innocent mom who was just like the rest of us.

Based on the facts that I have been able to gather up to this point, she knew her kid was not mentally stable. She told a friend that she was "losing him" and "he was getting worse" and was afraid of him and that he was burning himself with lighters. Instead of dealing with that appropriately, it was more important to her to continue doomsday prepping instead of restricting access to firearms for her son who she recognized as having serious mental problems.

If I feed an alcoholic two bottles of booze, handed him the keys to my car, and told him to drive my children to school, I'm pretty sure you'd think I was a POS, as well. Or if I told a neighbor with Alzheimer's to do the same.

The last line of defense with this stuff has to be the people who are close to the ones with the mental illness. No one knew this murderer better than his mother, who clearly was aware of his substantial and progressive problems... yet she didn't care enough to keep these guns from him? This went beyond negligence, IMO, and all the way to complicity. Thus the reason that I don't consider her a "victim" as much as an accomplice.

**customloaded** · December 22nd, 2012, 02:45 PM

I'll tell you witch hunters what I'll do. I'll do some research based on second hand information, from sources who, at this point, might say things because of political correctness and not the actual truth etc...about Mom, cause, you know, she can't speak up at this point and clarify anything as a direct source of information.

But, I will wait for official investigative reports to come out before I sign up as part of a witch hunt.

Tactical, as far as, in your example of feeding alcohol to a drunk and driving kids, I wouldn't think you were a POS. I kinda gave up on judging people so harshly without walking in that person's shoes for a mile or two.

Perhaps, you guys should read about Dr. Petit and how his family was murdered in Connecticut and perhaps, that is why she decided to Arm herself. 24 miles apart from Chesire CT to Newtown CT, btw. Here's a woman who decided to take her safety into her own hands and is being crucified for it. Seems we've seen this in history before.

Merry Christmas to all,

CL

**Manxdriver** · December 22nd, 2012, 03:00 PM

Is it just me? or, was that last post kind of hard to follow? I can't make out what he is trying to say there. He generally is pretty coherent. Let's chalk it up to holiday stress.

And following his lead, Y'all Have a Merry Christmas!!

**tacticalreload** · December 22nd, 2012, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by customloaded

I'll tell you witch hunters what I'll do. I'll do some research based on second hand information, from sources who, at this point, might say things because of political correctness and not the actual truth etc...about Mom, cause, you know, she can't speak up at this point and clarify anything as a direct source of information.

But, I will wait for official investigative reports to come out before I sign up as part of a witch hunt.

Tactical, as far as, in your example of feeding alcohol to a drunk and driving kids, I wouldn't think you were a POS. I kinda gave up on judging people so harshly without walking in that person's shoes for a mile or two.

Perhaps, you guys should read about Dr. Petit and how his family was murdered in Connecticut and perhaps, that is why she decided to Arm herself. 24 miles apart from Chesire CT to Newtown CT, btw. Here's a woman who decided to take her safety into her own hands and is being crucified for it. Seems we've seen this in history before.

Merry Christmas to all,

CL

You can feel however you want to feel for this woman. I was very careful to say a number of times that "based on the facts I've been able to gather" or "if the facts that are out are actually true" or included "IMO". This is because I don't know all the facts and can only go by what I have heard. You are certainly entitled to your opinion as well as your desire to wait for an "official report". However, it is my experience that when the "official report" comes out and does not correlate with the initial reporting, that people conveniently call it as bogus. I'm NOT saying you'll do this, but I'm saying that it's done a lot, especially here on PAFOA. Just look at all the people who are questioning the "official report" of the number / type of guns on the scene / in the trunk of his car. Everyone is crying foul and saying that there is a conspiracy to cover up the truth.

I'm not sure how you think it's politically correct for people to call her out on not acting on her son's mental illness with regards to locking up firearms. If anything, it would be less politically correct to blame a murder victim and it would go to further advance the anti-gun cause by saying she did everything she should have done yet this murderer still got a hold of guns.

I can't see any way she was simply arming herself to protect herself from her mentally ill son. If that was the case, he most certainly wouldn't have access to these guns. If I lived with someone of whom I feared for my life, there is no way I would allow him access to my guns.

As for your comment about "walking a mile in the shoes" of someone who gives alcohol to a drunk and letting them drive your kids... well, I am pretty damn sure that there aren't enough miles or shoes for me to come up with a rationalization as to what could be a justifiable reason to do so.

Once again, you're free to feel however you want to feel; but to ignore everything that's come out so far as here-say and to come up with a possible way to explain away this woman's actions (or lack thereof) and then to call it a possible "witch hunt", it seems like you have already determined that you're going to give her the benefit of the doubt. Personally, I'm going to decide to the contrary.

I'm not saying the mentally ill should be shunned or locked away. IMO, mental illness is just like physical illness and needs to be treated to help them get better. However, when it comes to someone who is SO sick as to be able to do what he did to whom he did it, this man should not have had access to the weapons that his mother owned -- period. If it comes out that he somehow defeated what we would consider "reasonable" attempts to keep the firearms from him and was able to get his hands on them anyway, then I'll be the first person to say I was wrong. Nothing I've heard leads me to believe that that was the case so until I hear otherwise, I don't have any sympathy for this woman.

**customloaded** · December 22nd, 2012, 04:34 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/details-emerge...080111997.html

The basement of the Lanza home had a computer, flat-screen TV, couches and an elaborate setup for video games. Nancy Lanza kept her guns in what appeared to be a secure case in another part of the basement, said Ford, who often met her and other friends at a regular Tuesday gathering at My Place, a local restaurant.

News article with highlighted statement from a family friend. So how were the guns not secured again?

CL

**tacticalreload** · December 22nd, 2012, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by customloaded

http://news.yahoo.com/details-emerge...080111997.html

The basement of the Lanza home had a computer, flat-screen TV, couches and an elaborate setup for video games. Nancy Lanza kept her guns in what appeared to be a secure case in another part of the basement, said Ford, who often met her and other friends at a regular Tuesday gathering at My Place, a local restaurant.

News article with highlighted statement from a family friend. So how were the guns not secured again?

CL

I thought you were going to wait until an official investigative report came out before passing judgement because we can't rely on "second hand information, from sources who, at this point, might say things because of political correctness and not the actual truth etc."?

I'm not sure what "appeared to be a secure case" means. I've seen plenty of gun cases with glass windows that have locks on the doors, which I never understood. In any case, he got the guns so my powers of reason tell me that they weren't secure enough to reasonably ensure he didn't get them. If they were locked in a safe and he didn't have the combo, he probably couldn't get to them.

I willingly agree that perhaps I'm jumping to conclusions by saying that she didn't have them "secure enough" if he got a hold of them. However, I don't think it was that big of a jump. She took him shooting often, supposedly, as training for doomsday prepping and as a "bonding" experience. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that she allowed him access to the weapons. But once again, I'm making assumptions based on what I heard.

I guess that one thing that we DO have to agree on is that until an "official report" comes out, we won't REALLY know the facts.