Why no semi-autos for hunting?

[The Rifleman]

If you really wanted to make a difference - you would have to start a union.

Back in the 70's we had a fall turkey season, and as far as I can remember no Spring Gobbler until the Game Commission started one after the population of turkeys was high enough to support a season.

Then the National Wild Turkey Federation came in and gave the game commission lot's of money.

Out of no where the turkeys came back to a population where everyone was seeing them again.

In my area, it was so bad that people spoke about turkeys like as if they were Elk!

Back in the day I can remember outlaws sleeping under trees the night before turkey season and shooting them off the roost before they had a chance to fly down.

I can remember walking to our camp from our home one day in June and seeing a couple of hens and some poults.. I told my family members that I saw some grouse on the camp road and some of them had long necks!

I was 12 years old at the time.

Thats how rare a turkey was in my part of the woods.

The National Wild Turkey foundation put millions of dollars into the pocket of the game commission over the years and nobody thought nothing of it.

They had a long range plan. Multiple kills in a single season.

The game commission said NO!

Then they came back and said " Well what if we bought a second license - after all the other seasons was over - that way you would get a second $20 a year out of the turkey hunters that wanted to hunt Spring Gobbler.

The Game Commission said ok!

Another point I have is back about 1982, the Game Commission had a free bear season. All you had to do was go out and hunt bears..

A couple of bears was shot and it wasn't long before they had a $5 license.

Now it is a $20 license and there isn't any more bears now than there was 25 years ago.

The Game Commission kept the money and what did the hunters get out of it.

Before long you will have to buy a Turkey Stamp to hunt Turkeys and a stamp to hunt Small Game and a Stamp to hunt bears and a Stamp to hunt Phesants and a license will cost $100 + a year for a adult resident hunter.

How do you think that they will be able to finance overtime for the Game Warden when he has to work Sundays?

How many people will refuse to become a Game Warden when they tell you that it is a mandatory 7 day a week job? Salary with no overtime.

In the end they will have to buy more trucks and hire more game wardens and spend more on fuel and timber more trees off the game lands and strip more coal and drill more gas wells and there won't be anymore woods to hunt on.

All because special interests groups wants to use special guns and extra hunting days and seasons.

The deer are already hunted into extinction.

Our area cannot support anymore seasons.

I didn't even see a Phesant this year in 100 hours of hunting small game.

There is NOTHING PLANTED IN THE FOOD PLOTS EXCEPT WEEDS!

I am one pi$$ed off hunter that is willing to say enough already!

We didn't need youth hunts.
We didn't need special early season muzzleloader seasons.
We didn't need a second turkey tag.
We didn't need a bear license.
We didn't need 6 weeks of small game after Christmas.

What we do need is more game and more places to hunt and better access to the places that they provide for hunting.

Open up some more of the roads in the Game Lands and get the people deeper into the woods.

I saw people in the Parking lot of the Game Lands last year the day before deer season camping out - because they wanted to get their spot for the first morning.

As far as I can remember it is illegal to sleep - camp in the Game Lands.

The Game Warden tried to chase them out - but all they told him was that they wasn't camping - they was just waiting for the season to begin.

With that he couldn't chase them out.

They were from Pittsburgh and Latrobe and Ohio. Not local residents.

Guess whos deer stand they were sitting in the first day of the season at 5 AM?

My dads and my brothers.

20 Feet up in a tree on one of them climber stands.

You want them people in the woods with semi auto matic guns - with no sleep and a bunch of beer in them? Shooting everything that moves?

[JustinM]

You want them people in the woods with semi auto matic guns - with no sleep and a bunch of beer in them? Shooting everything that moves?

Dude, you're a fucking idiot, and your logic is horrible.

Hunters could just as easily "shoot everyone that moves" witha bolt action, or a pump action.

Just STFU and realize that you don't support the second amendment and that you're worse than any anti that's never held a gun. Atleast they have the whole "ignorance breeds fear" thing on their side.

[MarcS]

You want them people in the woods with semi auto matic guns - with no sleep and a bunch of beer in them? Shooting everything that moves?

I don't want anyone in the woods with any type of gun if they have a bunch of beer and no sleep in them. If there should be a law against anything, it should be those guys, not people who hunt responsibly with semi-automatics.

[The Rifleman]

I don't even know where to begin with this. Thsi is so delusional an dself-supporting you should see a mental health professional. Prior to the 1934 NFA, and up till 1968, you could MAIL ORDER any fire arm you wanted. people brought back and kep FULL AUTO as was souvenires. You openly condone outlawing firearms, and contend that you are pro-gun rights, and not Anti-American.

Then you go and say how Semi-autos are not suitable for hunting, yet ignore sates like Wisconson, Montana, and many others where Semis are acceptable for hunting, with no adverse action. you ignore the Supreme Court's ruling in US Vs Miller, where they say they can't find a military use for a sawed off shotgun and therefore the 1934 NFA stands (didn't help there was no one there arguning for Miller). and you over look ArticleI Section 21 of the PA Constitution "the right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned." Additionally, many of the CANNONS in the 1700's, and the first Military unit to get Gatling guns were PRIVATE purchases, not governemnt purchases. Now PLEASE show me where ANY of this has ANYTHING to do with Hunting Fire Arms?

And I'd like to bring you back to point, Many people feel that the rule baring Semi-Automatics has no basis in logic. Could you in your ELIETE wisdom, please provide the logic and FACTS to back up your OPPINION that Semis are not hunting rifles?


Should you be unable to do this, please allow me to be the first to call you TROLL!

THE THOMPSON SUBMACHINE GUN

By Charles H. Smith


John Thompson, 1921.
(George Goll)
Anyone who has watched an old movie or browsed through a book on World War II will quickly recognize the familiar outline of this fine weapon. That finned barrel topped off with a Cutts compensator, the square receiver, either a drum or box magazine... the famous "Thompson Submachine Gun." Although "submachine gun" is an familiar part of today's gun owner lexicon, the word was created by the man who was responsible for bringing us this great gun.

John Taliaferro Thompson was born in 1860 and graduated from West Point in the class of 1882. Upon commissioning, he entered the army in the Artillery, later transferring to the Ordnance Department in 1890. During the Spanish-American War he distinguished himself when he directed the supply of munitions at a time of near chaos in the Army's ordnance and quartermaster units.

Thompson was involved in the testing and adoption of the Springfield M1903 rifle. He became famous for tests he conducted that resulted in adoption of the AS caliber as the official U.S. Army handgun cartridge. Various calibers were tested on cadavers. Later, in the slaughterhouses of Chicago, he conducted tests on beef cattle to determine the best cartridge. From these tests it was determined that the .45 was the only acceptable cartridge for a handgun and thus leading to the adoption of the Colt AS M1911 automatic.

In November 1914 he retired from the service with the intention of devoting his full time to perfecting an automatic rifle. He was to join Remington Arms Company as their Chief Engineer. There he was responsible for organizing the construction, outfitting and operation of a rifle factory at Eddystone, Pennsylvania, to produce the British Enfield rifle. In 1916 he set up another factory to produce MosinNagant rifles for the Russian Army.

When the United States entered World War I, he was recalled to active duty and was instrumental in adapting the British Enfield rifle to .30 caliber and producing it as the M1917. Promoted to brigadier general, he was responsible for the supply of small arms and ammunition to the Allied Expeditionary Force (AEF) in France and by all accounts performed these manifold tasks with the utmost efficiency. As a result, Thompson was awarded the Distinguished Service Medal. In December 1918 he retired from the service for a second time.

Thompson’s primary interest remained the development of an automatic rifle. He believed an "intermediate" automatic weapon in the ballistic class between the pistol and the rifle would be a requirement in future wars. In Thompson's mind to accomplish this end meant overcoming several obstacles.

He rejected gas operation as being too complicated for a shoulder arm. Recoil operation, he believed, would result in a weapon with too much weight. Blowback was not suitable for a powerful military cartridge. This list of obstacles nearly exhausted the then available methods of operation. He also wished to develop a system unencumbered by the patents of large firearms companies and the hefty patent license payments that came with them.

Commander John Blish, U.S. Navy, had in 1915 patented a delayed blowback breech system in which a sloping metal wedge interlocked the breech block with the gun body. Under high pressure, as when the cartridge fired, the angle of the slope was such that the mating faces jammed solid. As the pressure dropped, the faces were able to slip across each other, the wedge moved up due to the slope, and the breech unlocked.

Thompson, after investigating Blish's invention, offered Blish shares in a company he was forming in exchange for the patent. Blish accepted and with the financial backing of Thomas Ryan, the Auto-Ordnance Company was founded in 1916.

Thompson hired two design engineers, Theodore H. Eickhoff and Oscar V. Payne, to work on the new design. Even though Thompson was recalled to active duty, work proceeded.

The designers quickly learned that a rifle cartridge would not work. The AS pistol cartridge, however, worked very well. When Thompson was advised of this, he changed goals... a hand-held machine gun which he labeled "Trench Broom." In 1919 the design became a reality. Although the need of his largest intended customer, the U.S. Government ended with the Armistice, Thompson was undaunted and started promoting his new weapon as a police gun.

Thompson's new gun was a delayed blowback type feeding from a characteristic drum magazine with an outline which became well known, a finned barrel, two pistol grips and a short butt. Thompson coined the term "submachine gun" but the press needed a term to catch the public fancy, and thus, the term "Tommy Gun" came into being. Auto-Ordnance actually registered "Tommy Gun" with the Trade Mark division of the Patent Office and this was even stamped on some guns.

It was adopted by the U.S. Marines even though it received highly unfavorable publicity in criminal hands. The use of the gun by criminals was greatly exaggerated much the same as today in the case of "assault rifles."

Thomas Ryan, who had financed the operation, died in 1928 and his son disposed of Auto-Ordnance Corporation. When the company was sold to Maguire Industries, Thompson lost control. The firm was to remain in Russell Maguire's hands until 1951 when it was sold to George Numrich, Jr. of the Numrich Arms Corporation.

Thomas B. Nelson in his book, "The World's Submachine Guns," categorized all Thompson guns into distinct groups based upon manufacturer:

Prototype to 1919 Warner & Swasey
Models 1921 to 1928 Colt
British made guns B.S.A.
1928A1 & M1 series Auto-Ordnance & Savage
Unlicensed copies China & Viet-Nam

The first gun produced, bearing neither model or serial number, appeared in 1918 and was belt fed and with little resemblance to later Thompsons. This was followed by the Model 1919 in AS caliber. Provision was made for feeding by a box magazine while the rear grip was placed near the back of the receiver. One distinctive feature was the firing pin fabricated as forward extremity of the actuator. The cyclic rate of fire was approximately 1,000 rounds per minute. Some reports indicate that prototypes were made to fire various calibers.

In 1920 the prototype was tested by the U.S. Government. On April 27, 1920, the Springfield Armory conducted functioning tests of the weapon. Test results were impressive: 2,000 rounds were fired with only one stoppage. A few months later the Marine Corps tested the weapon with similar results.

Although the results were impressive, neither service recommended adoption.

Model 1921


Colt-made Thompson submachine gun, Model of 1921, with buttstock detached. (George Goll)
The first production model was the Model 1921. A distinctive change was the elimination of the barrel jacket to protect the shooter's hands which was used on earlier models. All later model Thompsons assume the characteristic appearance of the Model 1921. Components for the Model 1921 were manufactured in a single lot which would equal 15,000 guns. This was probably due to anticipated fast sale of the new gun.

The Model 1921 never sold in great quantities to any purchaser and was not adopted by military forces although tests were conducted in Belgium and England.


Model 1923


Model 1923 Thompson Gun
This model was an abortive attempt to use a cartridge with better ranges up to 650 yards. The cartridge used was the .45 Remington-Thompson, bullet weight of 250 grains reaching a muzzle velocity of 1,450 feet per second. The cyclic rate of fire for this model was reported to be 400 rounds per minute. The 1923, called the "Military Model," offered a horizontal forearm, detachable stock and sling swivels. A biped and bayonet were optional accessories. Sales were negligible and this model and ammunition are valued collectors items today.


Model 1927


Model 1927 Thompson Semi-automatic Carbine, identical in appearance with the submachine gun. (George Goll)
This model is simply the Model 1921 restricted to semi-auto fire. The action and magazines are the same as the Model 1921 and by the time it appeared on the market, a 100-round drum was available.


Model 1928


Thompson submachine gun, U.S. Navy Model of 1928, with Cutts compensator. (George Goll)
In a catalog published by Auto-Ordnance in the 1930's this model is referred to as the "Navy Model," .45 caliber. The U.S. Navy ordered 500 of this model and helped keep struggling company alive. It was used by U.S. Marines in Nicaragua and was described as very effective in the jungle fighting. The catalog also notes this gun was then in use by the Army, Navy and Coast Guard. The "Navy Model" utilizes the horizontal foregrip, compensator and sling swivels although it was offered either with vertical or horizontal foregrip, with or without the compensator. The cyclic rate of fire was reduced to 700 rounds per minute.


World War II


U.S. Army Air Corps security squad armed with newly issued Thompsons at Hamilton Feild, California, in October 1941. (Wide World)
Up to the beginning of World War II, the total Thompsons bought by the U.S. Army totaled less than 400. With the war came large orders and production became a problem. In the fall of 1939 the French ordered 3,750 Model 1928 guns and 30 million rounds of ammunition. Orders were also received from Sweden and England. In the U.S. the submachine gun was still considered an auxiliary weapon, but with the development of an armored force, large quantities were needed.

The Model 1928 was simplified for mass production to meet this need. The lock, actuator, breech oiler, buttstock catch, compensator, and barrel fins were eliminated. A selector on the left side permitted full auto or single shots. In April 1942 it was dubbed the "Thompson submachine gun, caliber AS, M1." This variant did not see full production until 1943.


Thompson Submachine Gun Cal. .45 M1

This gun was produced by Auto-Ordnance at Bridgeport, Connecticut, and by Savage at Utica, New York. Army procurement records indicate Auto-Ordnance produced 847,991 guns while Savage produced 539,143. Savage subsequently produced a total of approximately 1,250,000 Thompsons prior to and during World War II. It is reported that Auto-Ordnance total production was slightly over 200,000. Serial numbers of Auto-Ordnance manufacture are preceded by "AO." The Savage productions has the letter "S" preceding serial numbers.

All production guns were fed by a 20-round box magazines although those adapted prior to the M1 series could use 50-round drum magazines.

The Thompson was most popular among specialized troops such as Rangers, Marine Raiders, armored and parachute units. It became somewhat of a status symbol and was eagerly sought after. Even today many veterans consider it the best weapon of WWII.


Pfc. William F. Doty firing a Thompson in a forest near the Siegfried Line in Germany in World War II. (U.S. Army)
Although the Thompson had many good attributes and enjoyed a good reputation, it did have drawbacks. One of the most frequent "gripes" was its weight.. more than 10 pounds, heavier than the M1 Garand. As most submachine guns, it was difficult for the average GI to control in full auto fire. Some commanders said it wasn't any good beyond 50 yards. It, like other submachine guns, lacked penetrating power.

The .30 caliber carbine was intended to replace the submachine gun and the .45 pistol, but this goal was never achieved. In close quarters where penetrating power and long range performance were not factors, the Thompson stood out. The Thompson went on to see service in Korea and even some in Viet Nam.

As for General Thompson, he was never to see the overwhelming success of his gun as a military weapon. He died in 1940 at the age of 80 years, but he left his mark on the history of military weapons.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Making the Twenties (and Thirties) Roar

by Charles M.B. Smith


The St. Valentine's Day Massacre in Chicago, 1929. (UPI)
Although the proportion of Thompson submachine guns misused by Prohibition-era gangsters and Depression-era bandits was minuscule compared to the thousands used by American soldiers and lawmen, it is their lurid employment by hoodlums that is perhaps best remembered.

In part we can thank the likes of Jimmy Cagney and Edward G. Robinson for this (personally I prefer Robert Taylor defiantly blazing away at the Japanese in the final scene of "Bataan"). Another reason is that the Thompson saw the most misuse in a day and age when some bandits actually sent out press releases (Remember "The Ballad of Bonnie and Clyde"?). The bandits loved the notoriety and a Depression-weary public ate it up.

The fact that the Thompson featured in a few spectacular front-page crimes did nothing to help its image. The best known of these is no doubt the notorious "St. Valentine's Day Massacre" of 1929 when henchmen of the sinister Al Capone, who had conveniently alibied himself to Florida, mowed down seven members of the "Bugs" Moran gang in a Chicago garage.

The truth was, the tommy gun was no more popular during the Beer Wars of the Twenties than "assault weapons" are with criminals today, for much the same reason -concealment (The tommy-gun-in-the-cello-case ploy probably worked for about a week). Gangland assassins, then as now, generally preferred a pistol at close range, or if silence was needed, an icepick or garrote.

The Thompson was popular with most of the Depression-era bandits; most, but not all. The Barrow gang preferred 1918 BARs looted from National Guard armories, which they used to hose down pursuing police cars. Their nemesis, Capt. Frank Hamer of the Texas Rangers, preferred the model 8 Remington, and when his posse shot down the murderous couple in 1934, only one Thompson, wielded by a Louisiana deputy, was in use.


John Dillinger posing with a Thompson and the wooden pistol he claimed he used in breaking out of the Crown Point, Indiana, jail in 1934.
(Wide World)
The infamous George "Machine Gun" Kelly got his nickname from the Thompson he used on a summer night in 1933 to kidnap oilman Charles Urschel from his home in Oklahoma City. Ursehel was later released unharmed. Kelly did not have his Thompson, or much else, on him when agents of the FBI caught up to him. The terrified outlaw is reputed to have screamed "Don't shoot, G-men, I give up!!!" when they put the collar on him, thus accounting for the Feds' famous nickname.

Thompsons, generally looted from small town police stations, along with early-day body armor were a favorite item for Public Enemy No.1, John Dillinger. The Dillinger-Nelson gang, along with their sometimes-cohort, Charles Arthur "Pretty Boy" Floyd (Oklahoma's contribution to the blemishes on the backside of society) liked to carry Thompsons with the buttstock removed and a 20-round clip in place of the familiar drum magazine. This way the gun could be concealed under an overcoat, and, if shooting was involved, fired one-handed, leaving the other hand free to carry loot, grab hostages, or steer the getaway car.

It was this spray-and-pray approach that assured Dillinger a seat in the electric chair on January 15, 1934 when he killed Chicago Patrolman William O'Malley during a botched robbery. Because of this crime the law pursued the gang with a furious determination. The gang used their Thompsons to blast their way out of an FBI dragnet at the Little Bohemia Lodge in Wisconsin in April of 1934, but the Public Enemy's days were numbered. Dillinger only had a small Colt .38 automatic on the night of July 22 when Melvin Purvis and his G-men shot the outlaw down on a crowded Chicago street.

The spray-and-pray-with-the-chattergun tactic also sealed Pretty Boy Floyd's fate on June 17, 1933 when his gang murdered four lawmen and a robber in their custody at the Kansas City train station. Whereas the public had greeted the St. Valentine's Day Massacre with morbid curiosity, their reaction to the Kansas City Massacre was one of outrage, and only the lawmen had Thompsons when they brought Floyd's bloody career to an end on October 22, 1934.

For a time the psychotic Baby Face Nelson assumed the title of Public Enemy No.1. Nelson used a Thompson to murder two FBI agents on November 27, 1934, but it was also a Thompson that proved his undoing: Nelson's body was found the next day, pierced by 17 bullets from one of the agents' tommy guns. Appropriately then, it was the notorious ~chopper~~ that assured the triumph of law and order over the infamous criminals of old.

[JustinM]

And your point is?

[MarcS]

Alright, that was irrelevant.

I think The Rifleman is filibustering. Next, i bet he starts reading the phone book.

[jdlv4_0]

And your point is?

Damn, you beat me to it.

[danp]

You want it to be a felony to posess a high cap magazine while hunting? If the rifleman sounds like sarah brady, this motherfucker IS sarah brady.

Dude, you're a fucking idiot, and your logic is horrible.

Can you guys please debate civilly, these kind of comments do nothing but further divide a community which is already divided.

[The Rifleman]

Every effort has been made to make the Thompson gun available only to properly constituted authorities. In past years sales were handled through many large sporting goods dealers; the burden of determining the integrity of a purchaser thus falling on the dealer's shoulders. Experience has taught the makers of this weapon that such a policy is greatly abused, corrupt employees making sales to emmisaries of gangdom and falsifying records to make the transaction appear "regular." A new policy now in force will eliminate these troubles.

Police Departments, sheriffs and District Attorneys' forces, penitentiaries, prisons and jails, responsible banks, and bonded armored truck despatch services may purchase the various models and equipment. However, sales are no longer made through jobbers, dealers, or agents. The Auto-Ordnance Corporation has made the Federal Laboratories of Pittsburgh, Pa., its exclusive distributor. This Corporation sells direct to the above mentioned agencies only after proper investigation of the buyer. Purchases are made on officially signed orders from chiefs of police, mayors, city purchasing agents, or officials occupying such capacities in their localities. Papers must be signed, certifying that neither the weapon nor any of its accessories may become the property of an individual.

This new arrangement prohibits a sheriff from purchasing a sub-machine gun and taking it with him when he retires from office. For the gun is sold to the department only. This also applies to any other purchasing organization.

[MarcS]

Can you guys please debate civilly, these kind of comments do nothing but further divide a community which is already divided.

Sometimes you just have to call people out for being enemies of freedom. They like to hide behind owning guns, but they're not pro-gun.