Carrying long guns on SEPTA - new hunter

[jschwab]

So, I've tried to piece together all of the information I need from the PAFOA threads and I'm hoping I can get confirmation that I am understanding everything right. Me and my husband are getting into hunting and need to practice shooting our long arms (shotgun, rifle). We want to be able to take these guns on SEPTA to the South Philly range without organizing a car (we use Zipcar when we need to use a car but do not own our own car). I would like to be able to just travel down on the bus and trolleyand I want to make sure I'd be doing things correctly. I am gathering I need to obtain a LCTF beforehand? I'd be purchasing ammunition at the range so I would never be transporting that together with my shotgun - do I need a LCTF even if I am not carrying ammunition ever? I can also rent a shotgun or rifle at the range to practice with but, obviously, this is an inferior solution to practicing with that I intend to use in the field.

Thanks for any replies!

J-

[gnbrotz]

I am gathering I need to obtain a LCTF beforehand? I'd be purchasing ammunition at the range so I would never be transporting that together with my shotgun - do I need a LCTF even if I am not carrying ammunition ever?

Unless you are actually passing within the boundaries of Philadelphia city/county, not only is a LTCF not needed, but it's of no benefit. "Firearms" as defined for and used within the licensing statute does not apply to traditional long arms.

If you are passing within the borders of Philadelphia, a separate statute does require a LTCF for carrying even long guns and shotguns "upon the public streets or upon any public property in a city of the first class" (Philadelphia qualifies), but it does not apply if you fall under any of the exemptions of the licensing statute. Going directly to and/or from a range is an exemption, so for those specific and direct trips, you would not need a LTCF, even within the boundaries of Philadelphia.

[jschwab]

Unless you are actually passing within the boundaries of Philadelphia city/county, not only is a LTCF not needed, but it's of no benefit. "Firearms" as defined for and used within the licensing statute does not apply to traditional long arms.

If you are passing within the borders of Philadelphia, a separate statute does require a LTCF for carrying even long guns and shotguns "upon the public streets or upon any public property in a city of the first class" (Philadelphia qualifies), but it does not apply if you fall under any of the exemptions of the licensing statute. Going directly to and/or from a range is an exemption, so for those specific and direct trips, you would not need a LTCF, even within the boundaries of Philadelphia.

OK, that's really interesting, even on public transportation? This is in Philadelphia, going from my home in SW to South Philly on trolley and bus. We might not meet the direct rule every time, though, so we may need to get a LTCF. I'd be nervous, maybe, not to have one. I thought maybe transporting without ammunition might also be an exemption, but no?

[gnbrotz]

OK, that's really interesting, even on public transportation? This is in Philadelphia, going from my home in SW to South Philly on trolley and bus. We might not meet the direct rule every time, though, so we may need to get a LTCF. I'd be nervous, maybe, not to have one. I thought maybe transporting without ammunition might also be an exemption, but no?

Any type of "vehicle" (normally) requires a license, and if you meet the exception, any type is covered as well. As silly as it sounds, people have been prosecuted when caught making a stop while unlicensed. The small cost (IMO) is worth the peace of mind.

Long guns must always be unloaded when being carried in a vehicle, regardless of whether or not you have a license or are relying on an exception.

[BimmerJon]

Gnbrotz is correct that a LTCF is not needed for Long Guns outside of Philly (unloaded always)

But....

We are still in a state of emergency in PA... So you do need a LTCF to carry long guns everywhere in PA while that is on going

Edit: just read you are going to range... That means you don't need a LTCF

Greg is right on

[jschwab]

Wait, what is this state of emergency? I had not heard about anything like that - need to do research.

I really appreciate all the responses. This is all new to me and it gets really confusing but it seems like what the law is saying is that I could take a bike, walk or take the bus to the range as long as there are no stops and then back home again without having a LTCF. As far as being loaded, I was more referring to not having any ammunition at all on my person, but it looks like that does not make a difference in the code. We can have it in a very discreet case. Would you do it and feel comfortable?

I love Philly but I hate it when we are treated like second-class residents with this "city of the first class" stuff. There are other statutes in other areas that create a division with the rest of the state, too.

I think this is the part of the code that tripped me up:

(2) Prohibited Conduct. No person shall carry a firearm upon the public streets or upon any public property at any time unless that person is:

(a) either (.1) a resident of Pennsylvania licensed by a political subdivision of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania to carry a firearm or licensed to hunt; or (.2) a resident of another state, which state has a reciprocity agreement with Pennsylvania under 18 Pa. C.S. § 6109(k) or has statutory reciprocity under § 6106(b), and is licensed by such state to carry a firearm or to hunt;

I had the idea that the hunting license stood in for the LTCF.

[Philbert]

So, I've tried to piece together all of the information I need from the PAFOA threads and I'm hoping I can get confirmation that I am understanding everything right. Me and my husband are getting into hunting and need to practice shooting our long arms (shotgun, rifle). We want to be able to take these guns on SEPTA to the South Philly range without organizing a car (we use Zipcar when we need to use a car but do not own our own car). I would like to be able to just travel down on the bus and trolleyand I want to make sure I'd be doing things correctly. I am gathering I need to obtain a LCTF beforehand? I'd be purchasing ammunition at the range so I would never be transporting that together with my shotgun - do I need a LCTF even if I am not carrying ammunition ever? I can also rent a shotgun or rifle at the range to practice with but, obviously, this is an inferior solution to practicing with that I intend to use in the field.

Thanks for any replies!

J-

I would just get the LTCF anyway. It is $20 and some inconvenience, but I'll take that every time over the badly defined exceptions of section 6106(b). Fall outside of those exceptions (for example, by ducking into a coffee shop on your way home) and that's a misdemeanor 1, and no more gun rights.

There's also section 6122:

(a) General rule.--When carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle, an individual licensed to carry a firearm shall, upon lawful demand of a law enforcement officer, produce the license for inspection. Failure to produce such license either at the time of arrest or at the preliminary hearing shall create a rebuttable presumption of nonlicensure.
(b) Exception.--An individual carrying a firearm on or about his person or in a vehicle and claiming an exception under section 6106(b) (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license) shall, upon lawful demand of a law enforcement officer, produce satisfactory evidence of qualification for exception.

The statute doesn't define "lawful demand", but to Philadelphia authorities it pretty much means any demand they like. And I figure it's easier to prove one is licensed than to prove that one is going to or from a range.

[jschwab]

I would just get the LTCF anyway. It is $20 and some inconvenience, but I'll take that every time over the badly defined exceptions of section 6106(b). Fall outside of those exceptions (for example, by ducking into a coffee shop on your way home) and that's a misdemeanor 1, and no more gun rights.

There's also section 6122:



The statute doesn't define "lawful demand", but to Philadelphia authorities it pretty much means any demand they like. And I figure it's easier to prove one is licensed than to prove that one is going to or from a range.

We're printing the applications as I write! What happens if you're denied? I don't think we have any outstanding debts to the city or anything but these kind of things make me nervous... Now to find a few people willing to write a reference - that one might be hard. We have some instruction coming up - I wonder if it makes sense to take our guns or just use a loaner? I'd rather practice on ours.

[jschwab]

We ended up having weird experiences with this. Mine went OK - I am really only looking for hunting purposes and that seemed accepted and OK with the officer I spoke to and she made a photocopy of my hunting license and everything. But my husband went in today and they told him the only acceptable reason for an LCTF is self-defense and he didn't need one for hunting even if he was transporting firearms everywhere and stopping for coffee at Wawa, etc. Now I'm wondering if they will deny me since I clearly stated I did not need the LCTF for self-defense?

[ReconLdr]

Silly question???

You're not planning to use SEPTA to go hunting right? I could just imagine the horrified looks when you climb aboard the bus dragging a deer with you!!!! While this wouldn't be the most practical way to transport your deer but.... It would be worth seeing the reaction of your fellow bus patrons....