Wait for the Kel-Tec KSG or...

[sigarms229]

I was impressed with the initial release but after it wore off I realized there was no sense in being interested in one.

At the end of the day it is a pump gun that kicks like a mule, and while it is neat to have 14 rounds on hand, your shoulder after 14 rounds of fast action buckshot won't feel very good.

For the money, I'd rather have a Benelli M4 or FN SLP or a 3 Mossberg 930SPX's.

That's just my opinion though.

PS. One last thing, recently the Military Arms Channel (on facebook) bought a Keltec Bullpup 308 rifle to test. They had many failures with it and for weeks tried to contact Keltec with zero reply. Finally guys on a gun forum told them how to get it running reliably. They never heard a word from Keltec, so in that case their customer service is non existant.

[Beardog]

Have you seen this one? UTAS UTS 15.
Looks like it has a better design then the KSG. Both guns are cool, but I have a Mossberg 590 that fills my needs for defensive use well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oLijAxouVI

[OldSchoolPC]

I too, would LOVE to have a Kel-Tec KSG. However, For the price they want.... blah! That money can go toward 2 of XYZ nice shotties. Hell, for $619 you can get an MKA-1919. It's not quite as nice as a Saiga, but it's already (mostly) converted. Think of the savings! Get 2 of those and be done with it.

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/GUN-1919


P.S. Just saw that video for the utas uts 15. Might go for that.

[NathanB]

i believe the utas comes in much more expensive than the ksg. atlantic firearms may have had them listed at one point.

[Edg]

^ this.

Liked the idea. Bought a Saiga instead.
If you offered me a KSG for my S12 now. I'd laugh at you. I don't even care what I *could* sell the KSG for. The Saiga just rocks. Granted its not a bull pup but its pretty handy with a 5 or 8rd stick mag. If you don't care about weight put in a 20rd drum and let it rip. Recoil is mild, and ROF untouchable by a pump.

I'm actually thankful the KSG is vapor ware. I probably wouldn't have bought the Saiga if it wasn't. And I'm waaaaay happier with the way things ended up.

Im actually in the market for a tactical shotgun, can you tell by your use how a saiga would be for a lefty?
charging handle? exiting gases? shell casings?
Im thinking about a Saiga or a mossberg 930....Cant afford a m4.

[NathanB]

by the time you buy a saiga now you are in it 600 at least. Prices have gone way up. Then to convert it close to another 200 if not more. then to get bigger mags you are in other 100 or so. so keep that in mind. I do believe it puts it out more expensive than the 930. However its a very mean looking rig after its all said and done and you can do the conversions in pieces.

[ChamberedRound]

Im actually in the market for a tactical shotgun, can you tell by your use how a saiga would be for a lefty?
charging handle? exiting gases? shell casings?
Im thinking about a Saiga or a mossberg 930....Cant afford a m4.

I'm a lefty and I own a Saiga-12. Shooting it is no different than shooting any other rifle/shotgun lefty:

- Charging handle doesn't bother me, because my focus is on my target, or the end of the barrel.
- Saiga is an AK design, so it uses a piston; gases are bled out at the front of the weapon; no worries here.
- I've never had a shell casing come back at my face; they eject mostly perpendicular to the breech, and a few feet away.
- Mag release sits behind the magazine, so no worries here; grab the mag with your right hand and push the release with your thumb.

The only issues I have with the Saiga-12:

- Safety. DEFINITELY not lefty friendly, and I haven't found any parts or modifications to make it lefty or ambidextrous friendly due to its design.
- There's no last round bolt hold-open. This isn't a lefty specific issue, but it's an issue. In general, not having a LRBHO means not having a visual cue that you're empty.
- Related to the LRBHO: With other rifle-based AK designs, you can load a magazine (rock and lock) on a closed bolt, and then cycle the charging handle to put a round in battery. You CAN'T do this with the Saiga-12 in my experience because of the way the shotshell protrudes from the top of the mag, and because it's plastic instead of brass; the bolt catches up on that top round. Another reason why a LRBHO would be nice on the S-12.

FWIW, I also have a Mossberg 930 SPX (one of the original ones with the standard stock, NOT the pistol grip stock). This is a great shotgun for leftys as well, operates well, accepts lots of different loads, and does have a LRBHO. The only issue is the tang safety; while it's great for leftys when you're using a traditional buttstock, if you put the Choate pistol grip stock on it, that tang safety becomes difficult to get to, regardless of whether you're lefty or righty.

Hope it helps!

[ChamberedRound]

I have to say I wasn't all that impressed by it the owner absolutely loves it. It does have a cool factor as a 14+1 pump bullpup but its still a pump.

One idea I had, and why I was initially interested in the KSG, is that it's a pump, so it's possible to adapt it to hunting for those that don't want to have dedicated hunting weapons. It's a smoothbore, and the barrel is threaded to accept a choke/brake, so it might be possible to lengthen the barrel by adding a barrel extension on the end instead of a choke/break.

Run it in standard bullpup config for tactical/home defense, and put the barrel extension on for short range deer hunting, turkey, or waterfowl.

A moot point, however, given that they're so damn hard to find.

[Edg]

I'm a lefty and I own a Saiga-12. Shooting it is no different than shooting any other rifle/shotgun lefty:

- Charging handle doesn't bother me, because my focus is on my target, or the end of the barrel.
- Saiga is an AK design, so it uses a piston; gases are bled out at the front of the weapon; no worries here.
- I've never had a shell casing come back at my face; they eject mostly perpendicular to the breech, and a few feet away.
- Mag release sits behind the magazine, so no worries here; grab the mag with your right hand and push the release with your thumb.

The only issues I have with the Saiga-12:

- Safety. DEFINITELY not lefty friendly, and I haven't found any parts or modifications to make it lefty or ambidextrous friendly due to its design.
- There's no last round bolt hold-open. This isn't a lefty specific issue, but it's an issue. In general, not having a LRBHO means not having a visual cue that you're empty.
- Related to the LRBHO: With other rifle-based AK designs, you can load a magazine (rock and lock) on a closed bolt, and then cycle the charging handle to put a round in battery. You CAN'T do this with the Saiga-12 in my experience because of the way the shotshell protrudes from the top of the mag, and because it's plastic instead of brass; the bolt catches up on that top round. Another reason why a LRBHO would be nice on the S-12.

FWIW, I also have a Mossberg 930 SPX (one of the original ones with the standard stock, NOT the pistol grip stock). This is a great shotgun for leftys as well, operates well, accepts lots of different loads, and does have a LRBHO. The only issue is the tang safety; while it's great for leftys when you're using a traditional buttstock, if you put the Choate pistol grip stock on it, that tang safety becomes difficult to get to, regardless of whether you're lefty or righty.

Hope it helps!

Yes, very helpful, thank you.

[Asmodeus6]

I'm a lefty and I own a Saiga-12. Shooting it is no different than shooting any other rifle/shotgun lefty:

- Charging handle doesn't bother me, because my focus is on my target, or the end of the barrel.
- Saiga is an AK design, so it uses a piston; gases are bled out at the front of the weapon; no worries here.
- I've never had a shell casing come back at my face; they eject mostly perpendicular to the breech, and a few feet away.
- Mag release sits behind the magazine, so no worries here; grab the mag with your right hand and push the release with your thumb.

The only issues I have with the Saiga-12:

- Safety. DEFINITELY not lefty friendly, and I haven't found any parts or modifications to make it lefty or ambidextrous friendly due to its design.
- There's no last round bolt hold-open. This isn't a lefty specific issue, but it's an issue. In general, not having a LRBHO means not having a visual cue that you're empty.
- Related to the LRBHO: With other rifle-based AK designs, you can load a magazine (rock and lock) on a closed bolt, and then cycle the charging handle to put a round in battery. You CAN'T do this with the Saiga-12 in my experience because of the way the shotshell protrudes from the top of the mag, and because it's plastic instead of brass; the bolt catches up on that top round. Another reason why a LRBHO would be nice on the S-12.

CR took care of just about all of this. Let me expand on one or two things that have changed a little since the "saiga 12" first became available.

1. If you buy a IZ-109 (standard fare S12) Everything he said is true.
2. If you buy a Molot Vepr, or any of the 'new breed' Saiga's from someone like LEGION. You can get a version that isn't rock and lock at ALL. They use standard mags like an AR 15, and have a magwell. They ALSO have LRBHO.

That leaves the safety. Which, on a lot of shotguns can be the odd thing out once you change the stock.

That said, your $600 price tag is going to shoot north to $900-1100 for one of the newer style ones. And mags are less common due to the change in magwell etc. I'm pretty sure you can modify standard rock and locks to work with these by hacking off the locking tabs though. I'm a pretty frugal gun guy, and only splurge on a few things. The Saiga is worth it.

Granted, in the end, you WILL have Benelli M4 money in one of these higher end models. They are the softest shooting 12 gauges I've ever encountered. I can rip 50rds of 3" magnum buckshot through the Saiga and not even blink. No pain, no - "I was definitely shooting a 12 gauge yesterday" feeling. I bought one of the extra adjustable gas plugs for it (MD ARMS VPLUG) and I can dial it in for nearly anything that goes through it in less than a second by turning a knob.

They do make left side safety's for AK pattern guns. They are not aesthetically pleasing.

Here's a few examples in this thread on ARF.
http://3gn.ar15.com/archive/topic.ht...&f=64&t=103601