Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 25
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Reading, Pennsylvania
    (Berks County)
    Age
    49
    Posts
    934
    Rep Power
    104

    Question Property rights and firearms?

    This is something that has been bothering me for a while now. How in the world did someone figure that private property rights could trump both the federal and state constitutions on a citizens right to bare arms for self defense? Rights that are protected so that even a government cannot violate them(in theory) can be trumped because you are standing in Jim Bob's front yard? Or somebody's store? Although I am not a lawyer (way too honest) I see a major hole in this arguement. If that right is ok to prevent than are all the others ok to deny also? The next time I go to the mall can they search me and take whatever I might have because they want to? No..... Can they tell me I cannot speak my mind and voice my opinion on a subject when asked by another? No.... Can they imprision me with no charges and no lawyer? No..... So why should my right to self defense be treated any differently? The law of the land does not stop at the property line. Local state and federal laws do not evaporate on private property......why should my rights?

    Can someone please explain this to me?

    What is your opinion?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
    (Allegheny County)
    Age
    53
    Posts
    7,320
    Rep Power
    37697

    Default Re: Property rights and firearms?

    Quote Originally Posted by sluggie24 View Post
    This is something that has been bothering me for a while now. How in the world did someone figure that private property rights could trump both the federal and state constitutions on a citizens right to bare arms for self defense? Rights that are protected so that even a government cannot violate them(in theory) can be trumped because you are standing in Jim Bob's front yard?
    the federal and state constitutions do not apply *even* to government, they apply *only* to government.

    the bill of rights and PA declaration of rights only limit what the government can do...they do not limit what private citizens can do.

    for example, the government (at least in theory) cannot tell you that you cannot stand on public property and declare george bush to be the great satan.

    however, i most certainly can tell you that you cannot stand in my backyard and declare george bush to the great satan.

    likewise the government cannot legitimately tell you you cannot carry a gun on public property, but i most certainly can not allow you to bring a gun into my home.

    If that right is ok to prevent than are all the others ok to deny also?
    on private property, generally the anser is yes. however, there are federal and state laws that regulate what private individuals can and cannot allow on their own property (whether or not such laws are themselves constitutional is another debate).

    further, there are federal and state laws that differentiate between, for example, a private home and a privately run business that is "open to the public". although privately run businesses that are open to the public do have additional restrictions placed on what they can or cannot do (as compared to a private home), they are still not subject to the constitutional limits placed on governmental authority as they are not the government.

    The next time I go to the mall can they search me and take whatever I might have because they want to? No..... Can they tell me I cannot speak my mind and voice my opinion on a subject when asked by another? No....
    actually, yes they can. they can't just take whatever you have, but they can ask you to leave. if you do not leave, they can have you charged with tresspassing. again, there are limits placed on this by law (and one can argue whether or not those laws are themselves constitutional)...but not by the constitution.

    The law of the land does not stop at the property line.
    the constitution does stop at the property line...as do many other laws.

    Can someone please explain this to me?
    why should i be forced to let you carry a gun in my home if i don't want you to? why should i be forced to let someone spew anti-gun BS in my home if i don't want them to?

    i think you would prolly agree that i should not be forced to do either.

    now, think of this. i started and built my own business. i created it. i own it. it is mine.

    why should the government be able to tell me i have to allow people to carry guns into my business (i actually encourage it, of course, but still that should be my choice)? why should the government be able to tell me i have to allow people to use my business as a place to spew anti-gun BS?

    anyway, if you genuinely want to understand this, the key is to realize that the bill of rights and pa declaration of rights only limit what the government can do...they do not in any way limit what private entities can do (though other laws have been passed which do impose such limitations).

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsyltucky, Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,076
    Rep Power
    21474861

    Default Re: Property rights and firearms?

    I'm not entirely sure I get what you are asking, but I'll give my .02, what the hell with that and a dollar you can buy a cup of coffee.

    As far as my property. It's personnel property I own it, and I set the rules, within legal guidelines. I have the expectation to privacy.

    Bob's mall across town is private property, and he has the right to do the same including putting up a magnetometer to keep guns out of his mall.
    The way I see it though is his mall is open to public. Stores are providing a public service which has to be non discriminatory, to a degree anyway. If he wants people to stand in a line for three hours to get into his mall he probably could do that, but who the hell is going to shop there or want to sell their products there? He can post signs against firearms, but technically can only enforce it by asking you verbally to leave. He can post a sign that says no shoes/shirts no service. Does that mean I can't walk in without a shirt? Sure I can. I may get served I may be asked to leave. In which case I must leave or possibly be charged with trespass.

    The whole 2A thing with regard to those that would say that right doesn't extend to the individual goes back to I think US v Miller. Where anti’s often seem to misinterpret that the court found that the right to bear arms applies to a militia and not the individual.
    Trust me if they thought they could extend that believe system to any and all gun ownership, and get away with it, they would. Even the most rabid anti doesn’t want images of guns being confiscated by force. It would set their agenda back 100yrs, but I have no doubt many secretly drool over the image.

    I’m sure the more law savvy and our attorney members will be happy to correct me where I’ve strayed.
    FUCK BIDEN

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Middleburg, Pennsylvania
    (Snyder County)
    Posts
    1,234
    Rep Power
    35

    Default Re: Property rights and firearms?

    I see it as I am allowded by the governing body and laws of this country and commonwealth to carry in most places, even private property. But, I am not allowded to be on someone's property if they don't want me there. I cannot be arrested for having a firearm on my neighbor's property. But is he asks me to leave because I have a firearm, I must do so. So private property laws do not override the 2nd amendment. But I can be asked to leave at any time.

    Make sense?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Reading, Pennsylvania
    (Berks County)
    Age
    49
    Posts
    934
    Rep Power
    104

    Default Re: Property rights and firearms?

    Thanks for all the info guys! I see where you are comming from but I still feel this is a big gray area. I understand that individual rights are protected from the government in various Constitutions and Bills of Rights. I also understand that those protections do not apply directly to individuals. I do however question this.......

    If a government cannot violate the rights of a citizen that are protected, and a person has the right to ask you to leave their private property via property rights, but a government CAN take people's private property via the use of eminent domain laws, doesn't that put protected rights above private property rights? Don't all laws not spelled out in the Constitution and the Bill of rights become subserviant and nessesitate compliance with the larger laws of the land?

    I'm just trying to understand this. Some say they have the right to ask you to leave their business if you have a legal firearm. Do you have the same right if I am simply a different race than you and you don't like my race? Wouldn't that be discrimination? What would be the difference between racial discrimination and firearms/self protection discrimination?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
    (Allegheny County)
    Age
    53
    Posts
    7,320
    Rep Power
    37697

    Default Re: Property rights and firearms?

    imho, you are asking very good questions sluggie.

    Quote Originally Posted by sluggie24 View Post
    If a government cannot violate the rights of a citizen that are protected, and a person has the right to ask you to leave their private property via property rights, but a government CAN take people's private property via the use of eminent domain laws, doesn't that put protected rights above private property rights?
    talk about a can o' worms!! i will refrain from ranting too much, but the way eminent domain is used today is very, very unconstitutional--and immoral--and unamerican--and communistic--and...

    in and of itself, though, eminent domain (when actually used within the limits outlined in the fifth amendment) is constitutional simply because it is provided for in the constitution.

    Don't all laws not spelled out in the Constitution and the Bill of rights become subserviant and nessesitate compliance with the larger laws of the land?
    yes, but a private business owner not allowing carry in their private business simply does not violate anything in the constitution. as Zef pointed out, the business owner is not telling you you cannot keep and bear arms...just that you cannot be on his property--there is nothing inherently unconstitutional about that.

    Some say they have the right to ask you to leave their business if you have a legal firearm. Do you have the same right if I am simply a different race than you and you don't like my race? Wouldn't that be discrimination? What would be the difference between racial discrimination and firearms/self protection discrimination?
    there are two differences:

    1. race is not a choice. carrying a gun is a choice.

    2. more importantly, there are laws saying you cannot discriminate based on race. there are no laws saying you cannot discriminate based on the choice of carrying a gun or not.

    it is important to note that it is not the constitution or bill of rights that says you, as a business owner, cannot refuse service to someone based on race, but rather other laws that have been passed saying that.

    these laws have been held to be constitutional. while i abhor racism, i would actually argue these laws are an unconstitutional infringement on the rights of private business owners. however, the courts have found otherwise (and, the truth is that our society is prolly better off that way.)

    if laws were passed making it illegal to discriminate against someone based on the choice of whether or not to carry a gun and those laws were held to be constitutional, then the analogy to race based discrimination would be more applicable.

    (also, our society has developed a screwed up notion of what is "public" versus what is "private", and this causes a lot of confusion. we all think of businesses as public, but they really aren't. they are private. "public" places are funded by tax dollars...streets, sidewalks, public librarires, etc.

    businesses, on the other hand, are funded with private dollars. thus, even if they welcome the public, they are not really public places. they are private places...just like your home. the law doesn't always view businesses that way, but the law also does not put them on the same level as actual "public" places.)

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Brookville, Pennsylvania
    (Jefferson County)
    Age
    51
    Posts
    20,076
    Rep Power
    21474874

    Default Re: Property rights and firearms?

    As stated above, the Constitutions limit what the governments may do or what authorities they have.

    Without respect for another person's property - you can never have "Castle Doctrine" or trespass laws. If you feel that property owners cant limit what others may do on their lands - then you cant complain if a devil worshiping bunch sets up on your front lawn and holds a democratic party fund raiser.

    By going onto another persons land you make the choice to be there and to abide by any rules they have. If you do not like the rules, you can go elsewhere. At places that search you - you consent to their searches, otherwise you don't get in. You still have a choice, but you may have to do things against your nature to be there - but, its still your choice.

    Like it or not, without absolute respect for property owner's rights - you can never ever have Castle Doctrine. If you want people to respect your properties, then you have to respect theirs.
    RIP: SFN, 1861, twoeggsup, Lambo, jamesjo, JayBell, 32 Magnum, Pro2A, mrwildroot, dregan, Frenchy, Fragger, ungawa, Mtn Jack, Grapeshot, R.W.J., PennsyPlinker, Statkowski, Deanimator, roland, aubie515

    Don't end up in my signature!

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Crawfordsville, Indiana
    Posts
    2,340
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: Property rights and firearms?

    Private property is just that... owned by somebody who gets to set the rules for that property. I set the rules on my property, and I don't want people telling me that I'm not allowed to. I support the right of property owners, store owners, neighbors, whoever to tell me I can't carry a gun on their property. If that is a problem for me, I will simply stay off their property, and in the case of stores, my money will stay off with me.
    "Never give up, never surrender!" Commander Peter Quincy Taggart

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Susquehanna, Pennsylvania
    (Susquehanna County)
    Age
    80
    Posts
    1,803
    Rep Power
    338347

    Default Re: Property rights and firearms?

    May want to try this site about personnel property rights

    http://www.constitutionalfreedomfoun...l_primer_7.htm

    I also think the 9 amendment to the Bill Of rights protects you, and may go back as far as the Maga Carta. Old English law. Or the Iroquois Confederacy in this country. Which was the bases for our constitution

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Reading, Pennsylvania
    (Berks County)
    Age
    49
    Posts
    934
    Rep Power
    104

    Default Re: Property rights and firearms?

    Thanks again for the information everybody! I'm tring to understand how this all works and it can be a bit confusing. When I was taking about private property I think I really ment quasi public private property (like a business/store) rather than your actual back yard. I can understand how a property owner of true private property can allow or disallow anyone they choose on their property. I was confused about stores and such however since they invite/need the public to be there and how it is considered public domain in many laws. An example would be getting arrested for public intoxication at.......say......Wallmart. lol Even though it is private property it can be considered public when it suits certian ends. Very confusing stuff.

    LittleRedToyota I agree with you on the eminent domain thing. If it is unconstitutional or not matters not when it is just plain wrong to do IMHO.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 21
    Last Post: May 27th, 2008, 09:17 PM
  2. Shooting on my own property?
    By heyyodaddio in forum General
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: February 26th, 2008, 08:46 PM
  3. Are firearms community property in PA?
    By blueeyedbyrd in forum General
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: February 15th, 2008, 08:25 PM
  4. Property protection?
    By dirtybug in forum General
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: January 28th, 2008, 10:05 AM
  5. Shooting on your own property
    By greyhouse in forum General
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: January 4th, 2007, 10:35 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •