Your personal/professional opinion on gun safes

[JStem1283]

As I see my coal room gun safe idea going to the shitter, I have started looking into safes. However my investigating has me questioning whats the point. I dont have an unlimited budget so those really nice $1500+ safes are not an option by any means. I'm more in the $500-600 range as TSC has a "nice" Cannon 24 gun safe for $499 and Dicks/Sports authority have decent deals then there is walmart with their various options. Now come my questions and I will preface by saying I'd like as many good, valid opinions from professionals as possible. The "looks decent" comments get me no where.

-I've seen the youtube videos of "professionals" getting into a lot of these entry level safes inside of 5 minutes, however most of the time they are getting the safe on its side in an open area.
-Does having it bolted down make that big of a difference?
-If the safe is in a limited access area will that help as large tools wont be able to be used?

-Is having a safe that looks "big and intimidating" deter possible thieves over just a gun cabinet?

The reason I question all this is basically leading to, if its pretty much just as easy to break into a $600 safe, would I be just as good off getting a cheap Stack-on or similar that will keep kids out and just buy a few more guns or beefing up my insurance since I only have 1 "irreplaceable" gun?

[Yellowfin]

Making it unobtrusive and in an unexpected place definitely improves its effectiveness at security. Think of surrounding it with plants, appliances, and other distracting/misdirecting objects and ideas. People aren't as likely to break into something they don't know where to look for or what they're looking at when they see it.

I'm not going to give away my clients' specific examples, but to illustrate with a hypothetical: if you wanted to break into an accounting firm to steal important documents, would you look in the bathroom or the back of the kitchen?

[Mirlen]

Anchor anchor anchor anchor!

Always anchor a safe, or instead of just trying to break into it they will just carry it away.

Also you might consider mounting it so that the door hinge is opposite a wall that it's next to so the opening portion is against the wall thus preventing maximum leverage on the non-hinged side of the door.

Something is always better than nothing and anything can be broken into given enough time and effort. Find your happy medium of budget vs. security.

[chiefdjs]

The average residential burglary is not a pro but a subject usually feeding a drug habit who wants to get into your residence and out in several minutes with items to be sold for cash. I investigated quite a number of residential burglaries before I retired with the norm being entry by breaking windows on doors and unlocking the inner handle, kicking doors in, or slipping through basement windows. These type of burglars usually do not carry more than a screw driver or small pry tool, something to throw away quickly to avoid added charges of possession of instrument of crimes.

From what I observed, most incidents were quick in, grab a pillow case or two from the master bedroom while flipping mattress (don't leave a gun under the matress), then pull and dump dresser drawers (don't hide a gun between clothes), and rifle jewelry boxes. Then on the way out grab any electronics that can be carried. In rural areas the subject was usally dropped off and picked up by an accomplish who kept driving up and down road.

One item that used to be taken years ago were mantle clocks (never use a clock with a false back to hide a handgun as advertised in Sportsman Guide). I recovered a number of them in raids for stolen property. In residences with gun safes, the safes were rarely touched. The average burglary does not have the time to mess with a safe as he wants in and out quickly without being burden carrying tools.

Any safe can be broken into by someone who has the level of expertise needed along with the tools and the time to complete the task. A safe should be considered as a tool to deter a crime or slow up the subject trying to compromise the safe. If you are worried about the average burglar supporting a habit, any safe will help you keep your firearms.

If you are worried about more of a professional type of burglar you need to look at other levels of defense, such as perimeter alarms, motion detectors, vibration alarms, etc. But you need to evaluate your risk factor to determine what you believe you need. If you are targeted by a pro, there is usally a reason such as an aquaintance or family member telling someone what you have of value and where and how you store it.

In my case I live 800 feet off of a public road. I live a very private life and don't expect any profession type of burglar to target my house. I have a medium gun safe (Winchester 12 gun safe) that is bolted into the floor and wall in a narrow space that would make it difficult and time consuming for someone to pry even if they had the right tools. The safe is also hidden in a clothes closet. I also have several layers of alarms on my residence. If someone enters and does a short stay they can take some items and get away, but I believe it would be difficult to pry my safe free and move it to a space to pry before someone (family before police) responds to my property.

Evaluate what you want to protect against and if you need some type of detection alarm in addition to a safe. As others have metioned, disguising or hiding the location of the safe is a great deterent. Noise from a TV or radio left or barking dogs can also act as a deterent with the junkie type of burglars as they go not want to enter an occupied residence. If they did, they would be into home invasions and that's a completely diffent situation.

Also, I investigated a number of incidents where small safes, usually used for fire protection for important documents were taken. If it can be carried and looks like it contains something valuable, the junkie type of burglar will take it. I keep such files in the bottom of my gun safe.

Best of luck on your venture.

[JStem1283]

The average residential burglary is not a pro but a subject usually feeding a drug habit who wants to get into your residence and out in several minutes with items to be sold for cash. I investigated quite a number of residential burglaries before I retired with the norm being entry by breaking windows on doors and unlocking the inner handle, kicking doors in, or slipping through basement windows. These type of burglars usually do not carry more than a screw driver or small pry tool, something to throw away quickly to avoid added charges of possession of instrument of crimes.

From what I observed, most incidents were quick in, grab a pillow case or two from the master bedroom while flipping mattress (don't leave a gun under the matress), then pull and dump dresser drawers (don't hide a gun between clothes), and rifle jewelry boxes. Then on the way out grab any electronics that can be carried. In rural areas the subject was usally dropped off and picked up by an accomplish who kept driving up and down road.

One item that used to be taken years ago were mantle clocks (never use a clock with a false back to hide a handgun as advertised in Sportsman Guide). I recovered a number of them in raids for stolen property. In residences with gun safes, the safes were rarely touched. The average burglary does not have the time to mess with a safe as he wants in and out quickly without being burden carrying tools.

Any safe can be broken into by someone who has the level of expertise needed along with the tools and the time to complete the task. A safe should be considered as a tool to deter a crime or slow up the subject trying to compromise the safe. If you are worried about the average burglar supporting a habit, any safe will help you keep your firearms.

If you are worried about more of a professional type of burglar you need to look at other levels of defense, such as perimeter alarms, motion detectors, vibration alarms, etc. But you need to evaluate your risk factor to determine what you believe you need. If you are targeted by a pro, there is usally a reason such as an aquaintance or family member telling someone what you have of value and where and how you store it.

In my case I live 800 feet off of a public road. I live a very private life and don't expect any profession type of burglar to target my house. I have a medium gun safe (Winchester 12 gun safe) that is bolted into the floor and wall in a narrow space that would make it difficult and time consuming for someone to pry even if they had the right tools. The safe is also hidden in a clothes closet. I also have several layers of alarms on my residence. If someone enters and does a short stay they can take some items and get away, but I believe it would be difficult to pry my safe free and move it to a space to pry before someone (family before police) responds to my property.

Evaluate what you want to protect against and if you need some type of detection alarm in addition to a safe. As others have metioned, disguising or hiding the location of the safe is a great deterent. Noise from a TV or radio left or barking dogs can also act as a deterent with the junkie type of burglars as they go not want to enter an occupied residence. If they did, they would be into home invasions and that's a completely diffent situation.

Also, I investigated a number of incidents where small safes, usually used for fire protection for important documents were taken. If it can be carried and looks like it contains something valuable, the junkie type of burglar will take it. I keep such files in the bottom of my gun safe.

Best of luck on your venture.

Thats exactly what I was thinking. I'm also lucky enough to be surrounded by genuinely good caring neighbors. My dog learned how to turn on light switches, which lead to one of them calling us to investigate what was going on. I think the location of the safe might actually be more important than the type of safe that you have.

[chiefdjs]

I agree that having a relationship with neighbors to watch each other's residence and report any suspicious activity really helps. Neighbors close by who may be watching helps to deter incidents.

I remember three residences in particular in my jurisdiction that were within 100 feet of the road (easy quick access) that were targeted a number of times. Two residences were secluded by environmental landscape (woods and or cultivated fields) and one was on a corner of two roads in the area of several large farms and not visible to the farmer's residences. All three residences were targeted a number of times by unrelated criminals who liked their secluded but close to road locations (the criminals profiling the residences for being secluded and easy access).

The one surrounded on three sides by cultivated fields was victimized every several years when corn was planted and high enough to make the residence appear very secluded on the small lot while offering easy access. With a lower crop, the residence was visible from other properties and not targeted.We made an arrest on two junkies who entered through a basement window on one of the jobs. We got lucky to get several fingerprints off of the window and compared the prints and got a hit after the couple were suspected of doing burglaries in the area.

The house surrounded by woods was hit a number of times until the homeowner installed an alarm. He opted for both monitoring and also a loud audible alarm, that was sucessful in stopping a number of attempted burglaries after installation.

Audible alarms work well to scare off the junkie type burglar as they do not want to be caught or confronted. If you have close neighbors an audible can also alert them or give the perception to the criminals that they were alerted to deter them away from your residence.

With the above in mind, a safe will buy you time (if not protect you from the average burglar) if your house is burglarized in addition to be able to secure weapons from visiting young children.

Making your residence appear less appealing to criminals helps to deter incident. Leaving a second vehicle in the drive when not at home, a radio or TV on, motion lights on the outside (although most burglaries occur during daytime), barking dogs, alarm company signs, etc all help to deter.

One last note, I know a person who's teenage nephew was big into electronic games. Many teens in the neighborhood knew of all of his "bells and whistles" that he had. Over a holiday weekend the teen posted on facebook that he and his family were having a great time at a festival in Philadelphia. That evening while the family was enjoying fireworks and concert as posted on facebook, his residence was hit and all of his electronics were taken. If you have kids, make sure they do not use social media to alert others when the family is not at home. This gives a great opportunity along with a feeling of "security" (pardon the pun) to any person wanting to enter and take something they know is in your residence and to take their time to do so. Make sure that your kids do not advertise that you have weapons or other things of value to avoid being targeted.

[cephas]

Heard of some people that store minimal value in their safe, and use a bogus hot water tank or something in basement, or store somewhere else, between walls, buried and so on. This has been mentioned on previous threads. Have an older Browning that looks good,but ever since that horrible boating accident has seen little use. Not to divert thread but it's a good story. When I purchased the safe it was with the agreement that they deliver it. Well the man shows up with his helper, his wife who has a t-shirt on that says "baby" with the arrow pointing at her belly. As luck would have it a couple friends were here at the time to help.

[chiefdjs]

Heard of some people that store minimal value in their safe, and use a bogus hot water tank or something in basement, or store somewhere else, between walls, buried and so on. This has been mentioned on previous threads. Have an older Browning that looks good,but ever since that horrible boating accident has seen little use. Not to divert thread but it's a good story. When I purchased the safe it was with the agreement that they deliver it. Well the man shows up with his helper, his wife who has a t-shirt on that says "baby" with the arrow pointing at her belly. As luck would have it a couple friends were here at the time to help.

That was a great story to share. Also some great advice.

[RandomTask]

Heard of some people that store minimal value in their safe, and use a bogus hot water tank or something in basement, or store somewhere else, between walls, buried and so on. .

Yup... if you want to hide something from your wife, hide it in something SHE owns but never uses (eg. inside the vacuum cleaner), not in your safe where she thinks it is.

[Irwin Inhabitant]

I really don't have much more advice to add here that hasn't already been posted.

Find a discreet spot that is easily accessible.

Camouflage it so it blends in as nothing special.

Bolt it down.

Don't ever show it off, even to your closest friends/relatives.

And this is just a personal preference, but I never did trust those electronic only locks. I prefer a combination and or keyed lock. An electronic lock that can be quickly accessed or over-ridden with a key should be OK. Again, just my personal preference.

One more thing that I'm not sure I saw posted here yet:
Make sure the floor structure where the safe will be located is capable of supporting the weight of your safe when fully packed. I think it is a good precaution to put down some strips of sturdy lumber or at least a piece of 3/4 plywood cut at a length that will span across several floor joists under the safe, to help distribute the weight more evenly.
Unless your location is on a concrete floor.

A couple years ago I bought a gun raffle ticket. One of the biggest prizes was a very heavy 28 gun safe. The kid who won it had the delivery guys put it in a corner closet off the kitchen, to be discreet about the location. One night several months later he came home to find it had fallen thru the floor into the basement and crushed his kid's expensive bicycles. Obviously the kids and the wife were a littlle bit upset.

The landlord actually laughed about it, and would not pay one cent towards the repairs. Said he should have put it in the basement in the first place. He gave him one month to complete repairs or move out.
I think he had much more weight in ammo than guns stored in it.