Winchester white box 9mm duds

[twency]

Executive summary: I had two dud rounds of WWB 9mm which got stuck in my gun. I plan to contact Winchester and complain about the ammo. Pictures are below.


Details:

I participated in the GSSF match in Topton, PA this past Saturday, shooting a Glock 19.

The ammunition was Winchester white box 100 round value packs from Walmart. My mags were loaded with a mix of ammo from an old box and a new one. I didn't pay attention to which mags had which ammo.

On the first string of fire the first two rounds went "bang", then the gun went "click" on the third round. Neither I nor the range officer could rack the slide to clear the dud round. After a delay I removed the slide and recoil spring, but I couldn't remove the barrel from the slide. With some tapping and banging it eventually came free. The reason I hadn't been able to rack the slide was that the round had a raised primer which had been pressing against the breech face.

In the mean time a Glock/GSSF employee had come up to the line; he examined the barrel and slide for any obvious damage or problems, and finding none said I could continue shooting.

Second try at the first string of fire, the gun went "bang" on the first round and "click" on the second. Same problem as before, couldn't rack the slide. Everyone agreed I needed to see the armorer but they didn't want me walking a hot gun back to where he was set up. This time when we managed to work the barrel out of the slide the dud round's primer cup fell out/off the back of the round. However no one could get the round out of the barrel so I walk the disassembled gun back to the armorer with the round in the chamber.

The armorer eventually freed it after a number of pulls with pliers on the extractor groove and pushes of a cleaning rod down the barrel from the muzzle.

The armorer examined the gun and said it was in good working order. (He performed a free upgrade of the slide lock spring and the recoil spring, both which he said had been improved over the course of the production run of the Gen3 G19, but said those were unrelated to the jams.) He told me to inspect all my rounds before shooting any more. I examined each one, then shot the 100 or so rounds of the match without further incident.

I had used two boxes of ammo, an old one of unkown date and one I just bought a few days ago. The rounds could have come from either, I don't have a good way to tell. One of the bad rounds appears to have some red lacquer on it, the other doesn't. One round appears to have a strange rolled-over crimp, the other doesn't. Here's what the rounds looked like:






Any thoughts?


EDITED TO ADD:




EDIT:
The lot numbers which the Winchester rep wanted from the boxes turned out to be embossed (not printed in ink) in the cardboard on the white side/outside of the flap sticking up into the box from below. In other words it was on a flap inside the box, but on the side of the flap facing away from the ammo. (See photo in post #26.) The rep mentioned several possible locations for the lot # and indicated that it could be in ink, so I gather that it is sometimes elsewhere and may look different. The lot #s were YK52 for the old box and FG11 for the new box. There were other markings on the bottom of the box in black ink which I had included in my email to Winchester. The rep didn't ask about those, but I'm not sure if it was because they weren't needed at all or just because they already had them in my email.

[rovert97]

I had a guy at my range last weekend with the same exact issue in his P229. Three separate times, the slide locked up after a misfire. We had to put the slide in a vice and use a soft mallet tap on the grip to get the round out. Each time the round had a primer that was nearly 1/8" out of the pocket. 3 rounds out of the same white box 100 pack. We told him to stop shooting the ammo, get the lot number and call Winchester and bitch about it. For the price they charge for their "value" ammo, the stuff should work. That's why I only buy federal for plinking ammo. Cheaper than Winchester, not as dirty and I've never had a single issue in thousands of rounds.

[the1jeffy]

I am no ammo expert, but I deal with copper/brass at work, and the chemist in me says the one on the right is oxidized. The purple color only happens when the oxide layer reaches a certain thickness, and the only way to get that thick is either through chemicals (maybe just damp) or heat. Might be older, too.

The left one is pretty prised up, is that from removing the dud?

[twency]

I am no ammo expert, but I deal with copper/brass at work, and the chemist in me says the one on the right is oxidized. The purple color only happens when the oxide layer reaches a certain thickness, and the only way to get that thick is either through chemicals (maybe just damp) or heat. Might be older, too.

The left one is pretty prised up, is that from removing the dud?

The damage to the rim (is that the right term? 9mm is "rimless") is from repeated use of pliers. I don't recall any damage to that rim/extractor groove when we first got the barrel out of the slide.

The one round does appear more oxidized, but it also appears to have a red/purple lacquer on it. I have other pictures which show it more clearly, but you can see it in the extractor groove in the photos I posted.

[twency]

I had a guy at my range last weekend with the same exact issue in his P229. Three separate times, the slide locked up after a misfire. We had to put the slide in a vice and use a soft mallet tap on the grip to get the round out. Each time the round had a primer that was nearly 1/8" out of the pocket. 3 rounds out of the same white box 100 pack. We told him to stop shooting the ammo, get the lot number and call Winchester and bitch about it. For the price they charge for their "value" ammo, the stuff should work. That's why I only buy federal for plinking ammo. Cheaper than Winchester, not as dirty and I've never had a single issue in thousands of rounds.

Interesting. I was guessing my duds came from the old box, but maybe they came from the new one.

I haven't done much shooting in the last few years. Maybe a few 100 rounds per year. 5+ years ago I shot several thousand rounds of WWB through this gun without any problems.

[Pizza Bob]

The way the primer backed out it is almost as if the case had no flash hole. The primer pushes the whole cartridge forward, jamming the case mouth in the rifling (that's why the "rolled-back" look in your photo). Your other photo with the primer out, looks like it may have blown the web of the primer pocket out - but can't tell from the photos. At least the theory fits the facts. Have you found out any more? Read of some idiots (that's a whole other story, but the monniker is apt) that had similar occurences - three times with three separate guns - with WWB purchased at the Easton WalMart.

Good luck.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

[twency]

Your other photo with the primer out, looks like it may have blown the web of the primer pocket out - but can't tell from the photos.

Later today I can take more photos if that would help. Do you want to see the inside of the primer cup? Or deeper into the base of the round, if possible?

[Pizza Bob]

Later today I can take more photos if that would help. Do you want to see the inside of the primer cup? Or deeper into the base of the round, if possible?

Deeper in on the one on the left. If it did indeed blow out the primer pocket web, then you should pull the bullet from the cartridge on the right, dump the powder and look down into the case to see if there is a flash hole.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

[WilliamMunny]

A guy over on the S&W Forum reported the same thing happened to him this weekend with WWB 9mm in his Browning Hi-power. His ammo was a year old he believes. Sounds like it isn't just one manufacturing lot we have to worry about.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/lounge/...ant-alert.html

[phill]

We quit shooting WW white box 9mm several years after it blew the grips off and the mag. out of a 92.
They paid to fix the gun and offered to replace the ammo. It probably helped that my friend was in charge of the ISP training range and an advisor on ammo and weapons purchases.