Storing rifles in Pennsylvania, moving out of state

[sashok]

I feel that I've read a few threads about this topic on this forum, but I would still really appreciate your view on this.

While being a PA resident I purchased 4 rifles. At this point I am moving to NYC (planning to get NY residency by next week), and I would like to keep these rifles at my friend's house. I have no intention at this point to take them anywhere but to shooting range in PA time to time.

My goal is to be absolutely sure that my friend would not (even theoretically) get in any troubles with the law by letting me keep them at his place.

I'll put a few questions/statements here, and please confirm/deny them if you are knowledgeable in this topic or please point me to any references I didn't mention here.

1) My friend does not have any restrictions on possessing guns as defined in 18 Pa.C.S. § 6105 as he himself owns similar rifles.

2) My rifles have at least 16" barrel, 26" overall length so they are not defined as a "firearm" by 23 Pa.C.S. § 6102. Does this mean that storing them at my friend's place is the same as storing any other item of mine, like, say a computer ? (I understand that this is completely different for handguns, but I don't have any)
Does the fact that these rifles are going to be stored in my own personal locked safe or that at least one of these rifles won't be allowed in NY State without modification is a factor at all to my friend's responsibility in front of the law ?

3) PA law does not have a definition of Assault Weapon, and the fact that 2 of my rifles are semi-auto with one being able to take magazines with capacities over 10 cartridges makes absolutely no difference to the point 2) above - is this correct ?

4) Do you know of any other reasons why my friend might get into violation of any PA or Federal laws by storing my rifles ? Would the signed letter which specifically says that I am letting my friend to store these rifles for me is a good idea ?


Also, I've read this thread. It is very similar to my situation, but this person had hand guns as well.

Thanks in advance for your help !

[GunLawyer001]

If your friend passes PICS then he's OK to possess your guns.

If you "gave" them to him before you left (while you're both PA residents), that would be OK, except that he couldn't give them back after you became a NY state resident. He could "lend" them to you while you're in PA, for sporting purposes.

If he simply stores them for you now, and you take them back later after you become a NY state resident, then you can't give them back to him. Interstate transfers require an intervening FFL (with limited exceptions), and you're going to muddy the water here once you become a NY state resident and the borrowing back & forth continues.

[knight0334]

Remember too that if you were to take them to NYC at a later date that you will most likely need a rifle/shotgun permit for your residence before possessing them within New York City.

New York State doesn't have such a requirement for long guns, but they cannot be "Assault Weapons" by NY's definition.

[tl_3237]

If your friend passes PICS then he's OK to possess your guns.

If you "gave" them to him before you left (while you're both PA residents), that would be OK, except that he couldn't give them back after you became a NY state resident. He could "lend" them to you while you're in PA, for sporting purposes.

If he simply stores them for you now, and you take them back later after you become a NY state resident, then you can't give them back to him. Interstate transfers require an intervening FFL (with limited exceptions), and you're going to muddy the water here once you become a NY state resident and the borrowing back & forth continues.

Some random questions that popped into my head - would be interested in others take on them --

Would the 'bailee', upon return of the longarms, still be violative of 18 USC 922(a)(5) if the OP ('bailor') never relinquished dominion and control by:

Does the fact that these rifles are going to be stored in my own personal locked safe or that at least one of these rifles won't be allowed in NY State without modification is a factor at all to my friend's responsibility in front of the law ?

Upon retrieval:

Would the OP run afoul of 18 USC 922(a)(3) in taking the longarms back to NY state if he retained dominion and control during storage?

Would he be excepted under 922(a)(3)(B) for any longarms that were originally purchased from an FFL?

What is they were originally bought FTF without an FFL?

[sashok]

Thank you for your answers. My original desire was to keep the guns in Pennsylvania forever - I wasn't planning to take them to NY. I also didn't want to release my ownership of it.
So what would you recommend me to do in my case ? These are the options that I see:
1) Continue storing the guns at my friend's place in my own locker which he would have no access to, and use them whenever I go to shoot. Do I put my friend in any type of muddy water in this case ?
2) Rent a locker and store the guns there so I can use them for target shooting when I ever come to PA so my friend is not involved. If yes - do you know where I can do it ? Should it be at some firing range ? Would they allow me to take/put back my guns when I become NY resident ? Can you please point me in the right direction.

[Helter]

Sell them to your friend for a good price, with the agreement that you get to use them whenever you want, and can buy them back if you move back to PA.
I wouldn't leave guns in a storage locker, and you being the owner of the guns, while a NYC resident, brings too many issues up (ie, once you go shooting, when you return the guns are you lending them to him again? now that you're an out of state resident, I don't think you can do that).
If you trust him enough to store them, you trust him enough to own them for you until you come to your senses.
PS lot's of people work in NYC, but live in PA.

[tl_3237]

Sell them to your friend for a good price, with the agreement that you get to use them whenever you want, and can buy them back if you move back to PA.
I wouldn't leave guns in a storage locker, and you being the owner of the guns, while a NYC resident, brings too many issues up (ie, once you go shooting, when you return the guns are you lending them to him again? now that you're an out of state resident, I don't think you can do that).
If you trust him enough to store them, you trust him enough to own them for you until you come to your senses.
PS lot's of people work in NYC, but live in PA.

Unless they are borrowed from the friend for 'sporting purposes' as defined by ATF, then this would be a Federal offense (18 USC 922(a)(5)) since lender and borrower are of differing states of residence (NY and Pa). Also the sale must occur in Pa while both are Pa residents to avoid Federal issues.

My suggestions:

1. sell them and be done with the problem;
2. secure the necessary license(s) and take them to NY.

[Helter]

Unless they are borrowed from the friend for 'sporting purposes' as defined by ATF, then this would be a Federal offense (18 USC 922(a)(5)) since lender and borrower are of differing states of residence (NY and Pa). Also the sale must occur in Pa while both are Pa residents to avoid Federal issues.

My suggestions:

1. sell them and be done with the problem;
2. secure the necessary license(s) and take them to NY.

what would you call visiting a friend, taking his guns to a range to use, then returning them after the trip. That's about as clear cut as "borrowing for sporting purposes" as you can get.

[knight0334]

what would you call visiting a friend, taking his guns to a range to use, then returning them after the trip. That's about as clear cut as "borrowing for sporting purposes" as you can get.

Unfortunately, range visits and unsanctioned target shooting doesn't really qualify under the sporting exemption.

Hunting, trapping, and maybe a few sanctioned shoots are pretty much the only recognized sporting activities that the federal government allows.

[tl_3237]

what would you call visiting a friend, taking his guns to a range to use, then returning them after the trip. That's about as clear cut as "borrowing for sporting purposes" as you can get.

The 'sporting purpose' phrase is also used in 18 USC 925(d)(3) with respect to importation of arms. This has been an evolving issue and the ATF has been developing and tweaking a 'Sporting Purpose Test" for decades. An ATF publication in 1998

SCOPE OF "SPORTING PURPOSES"
As in the 1989 study, we had to determine the scope of "sporting purposes" as used in section 925(d)(3). Looking to the statute, its legislative history, the work of the Firearms Evaluation Panel (see exhibit 6), and prior ATF interpretations, we determined sporting purposes should be given a narrow reading, incorporating only the traditional sports of hunting and organized competitive target shooting (rather than a broader interpretation that could include virtually any lawful activity or competition.)

In addition, the FEP specifically addressed the informal shooting activity of "plinking" (shooting at randomly selected targets such as bottles and cans) and determined that it was not a legitimate sporting purpose under the statute. The panel found that, "while many persons participate in this type of activity and much ammunition was expended in such endeavors, it was primarily a pastime and could not be considered a sport for the purposes of importation. . . ." (See exhibit 6.)

IIRC the ATF has also opined that practical and combat shooting are not 'legitimate sports'.

I'm unaware of any case law or ATF ruling that has provided the definition of the sporting phrase used in the exemption which you raise (18 USC 922(a)(5)(B)). It would be disingenuous to state positively that the exception would cover the OP in the scenario you propose given the preceding 925 interpretations. The best that can be said is that it is a gray area and should not be entered lightly.

There appears to not be an issue if the friend (new owner) accompanied the OP (seller) to the range thereby maintaining dominion and control of the firearms but that is not what you proffered.