Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
    Join Date
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    (Montgomery County)
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    Default RESOLVED: Illegal roadblock from getting my LTCF?

    Original post: Hello! I reside in west norriton. Upon arriving at West Norriton Township Police to get my (pre-emptively illegal) local police check card filled out, I was given yet another form, claiming I have to pay 25$ for a background check. It also asked intensely personal information that I don't feel comfortable sharing, like full info for my family doctor, and information for 3 guns by make, caliber, and serial number.

    Speaking to the kind secretaries at the office, I asked why I needed to fill out for my guns and their serial numbers. Their response was that it was so they could run it through to make sure they're not stolen, at which point I took the liberty of informing them that there's no such things as a PA registration system, and thus, that that simply can't be true. They immediately dropped the act and emphasized that they just do what they're told before referred me to their supervisor, who was allegedly out for lunch for the hour.

    I waited a bit under an hour before Detective McGettigan entered the waiting area to address me (in my opinion, blatantly unprofessionally). "What's up with your gun permit buddy?" or something along those lines. Upon quietly beginning to explain that the form asks for information that I don't feel comfortable filling out, and don't legally have to supply, he immediately grew incredibly defensive, walking for the door back to the offices as he said something along the lines of, "You can fill out as much or as little information as you want. It will go to county and if it gets approved it gets approved, and if it gets denied it gets denied, and it wont be on me, it will be on you because you didn't fill out the form correctly." I contested for a few seconds, "There's a legal issue here, I shouldn't have to fill this out" but interrupting me, he just continued to badger, "it won't come down on me." At that point, intimidated by his defensive attitude (and it being clear that I can't reason with his unprofessional attitude), I elected to just let him just stomp back to the offices.

    I filled out the form, negating the information about my family doctor, and about my guns, and handed it to the secretary before paying the 25 dollars and walking out with a receipt.

    This isn't the first time I've tried to get my license to carry. I'm growing heavily annoyed at the hoops I'm leaping through, and would hate for all this effort to be for nothing. Might I be denied? What should I do if it is?

    EDIT relevant post at 3:47pm:

    Just got back [from the sherrif's]. Headed to the office, handed them the form, my ID, and a 20 dollar bill. Having seen me earlier and personally given me the local police check card, they asked what I did with it. I kindly explained that I didn't need it. They said that I do. I said not according to state law. Suddenly there was a long silence before one of the guys behind the person I was speaking with said with careful wording that it will speed up processing for me, at which point I said, it will still need to be processed within- at which point he and I said simultaneously, "45 days". The previous gentleman I was speaking with directly then asked me for a number to be called at, took my form, copied my ID, and then handed me back the 20. He wouldn't take the 20 when I tried to hand it back to him. The guy behind him now said they will call me back in 45 days. With little else I could do, and with them closing in less than half an hour, I left.

    So yes, it's clear that this illegal little operation is thoroughly known to each and every single one of these guys and that they actively try to make efforts to pull the wool over people's eyes. That's disturbing... Like... really disturbing. Like, the definition of corruption sort of disturbing.

    Call me paranoid, but I suspect refusing to take my 20 dollars is a clever way of ensuring that I'll get a call in 44.9 days claiming I refused to pay the 20 dollar background check fee.


    EDIT:

    4 days ago (August 23rd), received a call from a deputy informing me that my application has been approved, and that I could come by the Sherrif's office any time and finish it up.

    Needless to say, I dove out of the second story window of my house, rolling onto the grass with my keys in hand, ripped my car door off with my bare hands ('twas slowing me down), turned the keys in the ignition and pressed the gas pedal so hard and with such urgency that it scared my car into transforming into a helicopter, before flying it to the office to pick up my LTCF.

    I had to pay the 20 dollars at that time (didn't pay it when I handed in the application), and it was briefly mentioned that I had previously, months ago, attempted to and failed to get my LTCF (unless someone there is eidetic, that is a disturbingly specific and invasive thing to mention...), and it was asked why I was unsuccessful. I said something along the lines of normal day to day life getting in the way. Soon, and finally, I was having my picture taken, and walking out with my LTCF. Good riddance... Good until 2017... and it only took the reading of dry, technical state law, 10 days processing, and the escort services of Optimus Prime to get it.


    Thank you all for your simple and effective advice!
    Last edited by StealthBeast; August 27th, 2012 at 09:47 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2006
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    127.0.0.1, Pennsylvania
    (Lancaster County)
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    Default Re: Illegal roadblock from getting my LTCF?

    I actually just facepalmed for real.

    If you're denied, you'll have legal standing to appeal it because their form is illegal, as is paying $25 for a background check that the sheriff is supposed to be doing.
    Rules are written in the stone,
    Break the rules and you get no bones,
    all you get is ridicule, laughter,
    and a trip to the house of pain.

  3. #3
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    (Delaware County)
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    Default Re: Illegal roadblock from getting my LTCF?

    Honestly.... I stopped reading after you said police check card.

    These threads are getting so old (nothing against you)

    It's fvcking 2012

    These illegal procedures, added requirements, extra fees need to stop.

    They won't stop until people REFUSE to do them.

    No... You don't need a lawyer, no... You don't need millions of $$$

    You ONLY need your mouth, your brain and the drive to tell your Sheriff to follow the fvcking law

    If you don't want to do that... Stop making threads about it and jump through their hoops like a good little puppet

    If you need more information to clarify what is legal and what is not, by all means... Ask us but please search first.
    It's been covered a lot

    The application is 1 page and 20 bucks. That's it, NOTHING ELSE besides what is on that ONE PAGE

    Rant off
    Last edited by BimmerJon; July 13th, 2012 at 02:15 PM.

  4. #4
    Join Date
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    Norristown, Pennsylvania
    (Montgomery County)
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    Default Re: Illegal roadblock from getting my LTCF?

    Quote Originally Posted by BimmerJon View Post
    Honestly.... I stopped reading after you said police check card.
    I'm not angry at you for literally not reading my thread, but if you did, you'd have found that I did try to contest it. I was severely snubbed by the highest person I knew how to get into contact with. I don't know what else to do.

    Edit: If you can muster up a bit more patience with me, what WOULD you do? I'll do it if it makes sense.
    Last edited by StealthBeast; July 13th, 2012 at 02:26 PM.

  5. #5
    Join Date
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    127.0.0.1, Pennsylvania
    (Lancaster County)
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    Default Re: Illegal roadblock from getting my LTCF?

    You should be contesting this with the sheriff, since they are the ones that are making you do the requirement of getting the police check card to begin with.
    Rules are written in the stone,
    Break the rules and you get no bones,
    all you get is ridicule, laughter,
    and a trip to the house of pain.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
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    Eastern, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: Illegal roadblock from getting my LTCF?

    Personally, I would fill out the official one page application and take it to the sheriff along with $20 and put it on the counter. If they say they won't take it, leave it there and walk out. See what happens.

    Section 6109 says:
    (g) Grant or denial of license.--Upon the receipt of an application for a license to carry a firearm, the sheriff shall, within 45 days, issue or refuse to issue a license on the basis of the investigation under subsection (d) and the accuracy of the information contained in the application. If the sheriff refuses to issue a license, the sheriff shall notify the applicant in writing of the refusal and the specific reasons. The notice shall be sent by certified mail to the applicant at the address set forth in the application.
    Once they receive it they MUST issue a decision one way or the other within 45 days. Denying you because you refused to jump through illegal hoops probably wouldn't hold up in court imo. If they were smart, they would just ignore the fact that you didn't get a police check card and issue your license.
    I am not a lawyer and nothing I say should be construed as legal advice.

  7. #7
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    (Delaware County)
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    Default Re: Illegal roadblock from getting my LTCF?

    Quote Originally Posted by StealthBeast View Post
    I'm not angry at you for literally not reading my thread, but if you did, you'd have found that I did try to contest it. I was severely snubbed by the highest person I knew how to get into contact with. I don't know what else to do.

    Edit: If you can muster up a bit more patience with me, what WOULD you do? I'll do it if it makes sense.
    You shouldn't have even gone to the police station at all. You are under no requirement to fill out any police check card, assist with the investigation, answer any questions, disclose your firearms, show your tattoos, pay parking tickets, pee in a cup, pay anything other than the 20 bucks to the Sheriff for the LTCF application, etc.

    I read you post, but it doesn't change anything. It all took place in the police station where you should've never been.

    The application process is as follows:

    Go to your Sheriff's office:

    1. Fill out LTCF application ONE PAGE, and UNIFORM for ALL counties in PA
    ---- This is it.
    http://www.co.centre.pa.us/sheriff/license_to_carry.pdf

    2. If you are asked to fill out ANYTHING other than this... crumple it up and throw it in the trashcan

    3. Receive Approval or Denial within 45 days

    4. Pay 20 bucks

    If denied, received a certified letter in writing on the exact reason of denial

    What I would do regardless is file a compliant against Detective McGettigan for official oppression. If Detective McGettigan so happens to come across this thread... you sir are a fuck tard and an absolute DISGRACE to the position you hold. You should be ashamed of yourself.
    Last edited by BimmerJon; July 13th, 2012 at 02:39 PM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
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    Chalfont, Pennsylvania
    (Bucks County)
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    Default Re: Illegal roadblock from getting my LTCF?

    Montgomery County is notoriously anti-gun. They will do anything to make it hard. Part of me wishes I lived there so I could challenge the system. But you could bet dollars to donuts that if you tried that, they'd invoke the "character clause".

    I know we've beaten this dead horse so many times, but I just don't understand the Sheriff's aversion to making the process easy.

    For most of the counties the background check simply entails a phone call (i'm assuming to PICS). Once that's done, it's done. Is the Sheriff (or her staff) that inundated with LTCF apps that they can't possibly make a phone call?

    And for West Norriton to charge you $25 for the background check and making you fill out extra paperwork (on top of the fact that the check card is bullshit in the first place) is completely illegal. You are being charged $20 from the Sheriff already and that should include the check. If the West Norriton PD wants to charge for the background check, they should be submitting bills to the Sheriff's Office for reimbursement.

    Is there anything we can do even if we aren't residents of the county?
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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Illegal roadblock from getting my LTCF?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdawgbeav View Post
    Montgomery County is notoriously anti-gun. They will do anything to make it hard. Part of me wishes I lived there so I could challenge the system. But you could bet dollars to donuts that if you tried that, they'd invoke the "character clause".
    This comes up a lot..... The Character Clause is not a wild card the Sheriff can use for any reason... It can't be used for outstanding parking tickets, having a mullet, giving a cop the finger, filing an official oppression report, refusing to fill out a police check card, etc. And it certainly can't be used if a person decides to stand up for their rights, challenge the Sheriff's authority to force him to follow the law.

    None of those actions or conditions would make a person "dangerous to public safety".

    (3) investigate whether the applicant's character and reputation are such that the applicant will not be likely to act in a manner dangerous to public safety;

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Norristown, Pennsylvania
    (Montgomery County)
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    Default Re: Illegal roadblock from getting my LTCF?

    Alright guys, thanks for the quick info. Taking my application, along with a copy of section 6109, and a bit of education, straight to the courthouse. Hoping I don't look foolish, but I don't really care at this point. Expect an update within a few hours.

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