Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default im 99.55% sure i was right, someone want to confirm the other .45%?

    i was at Cabelas yesterday to purchase a pistol. in the pistol case they had a pistol grip mossberg 500 series with a 18.5" barrel. it had a tag on it that said "handgun". i asked a salesman behind the counter why that tag was there and to my suprise was told that the firearm was infact a pistol by PA and Federal law and regulation. i laughed and told him he was incorrect, it was infact a shotgun. i mentioned several reasons why it was infact a shotgun and not a pistol(ability to put a stock on it, barrel over 12",etc etc) he looked at one of his coworkers and said "should i even bother to show him" his co worker just smiled at him(basically suggesting i was a crazy asshole who didnt know what he was talking about) he gets a form i believe it was a 4473 and tells me to read the bottom part. it said exactly what i thought it said pistol with a barrel under 12" shotgun barrel under 18" and rifle under 16" OAL under 26".

    long story short,,, i am right, right? it is a shotgun, right?
    sig sauer p239 .357 sig DC(open carry for now)
    witness .40s&w
    .22mag/lr revolver
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    12 ga moss 500 pistol grip(loaded with slug hollow points)[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  2. #2
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    Default Re: im 99.55% sure i was right, someone want to confirm the other .45%?

    It's a shotgun. You're right. The clowns at Cabela's are wrong.
    Last edited by longcall911; June 3rd, 2012 at 05:13 PM.
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: im 99.55% sure i was right, someone want to confirm the other .45%?

    Quote Originally Posted by delcosheriffsucks View Post
    i was at Cabelas yesterday to purchase a pistol. in the pistol case they had a pistol grip mossberg 500 series with a 18.5" barrel. it had a tag on it that said "handgun". i asked a salesman behind the counter why that tag was there and to my suprise was told that the firearm was infact a pistol by PA and Federal law and regulation. i laughed and told him he was incorrect, it was infact a shotgun. i mentioned several reasons why it was infact a shotgun and not a pistol(ability to put a stock on it, barrel over 12",etc etc) he looked at one of his coworkers and said "should i even bother to show him" his co worker just smiled at him(basically suggesting i was a crazy asshole who didnt know what he was talking about) he gets a form i believe it was a 4473 and tells me to read the bottom part. it said exactly what i thought it said pistol with a barrel under 12" shotgun barrel under 18" and rifle under 16" OAL under 26".

    long story short,,, i am right, right? it is a shotgun, right?
    What was the over all length?
    Hafa Adai! IANAL I merely state my opinion. If I am wrong, please correct me.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: im 99.55% sure i was right, someone want to confirm the other .45%?

    I believe that federally-speaking, the Mossberg Cruiser is not considered a "shotgun" since it does not have a stock. A "shotgun" or "long gun" is designed to be fired from the shoulder. So on the form 4473 it would be considered "other" and not to be sold to anyone under 21. I don't believe you need to fill out a form SP4-113 however, since it is not considered a "firearm" under PA law (for purposes of transferring anyway).

    IANAL

    ETA: See this thread:

    http://forum.pafoa.org/pennsylvania-...ser-500-a.html
    Last edited by bac0nfat; June 3rd, 2012 at 05:48 PM.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: im 99.55% sure i was right, someone want to confirm the other .45%?

    You're wrong. I do not have the time to cite the reasons why.
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  6. #6
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    Default Re: im 99.55% sure i was right, someone want to confirm the other .45%?

    Quote Originally Posted by bac0nfat View Post
    I believe that federally-speaking, the Mossberg Cruiser is not considered a "shotgun" since it does not have a stock. A "shotgun" or "long gun" is designed to be fired from the shoulder. So on the form 4473 it would be considered "other" and not to be sold to anyone under 21. I don't believe you need to fill out a form SP4-113 however, since it is not considered a "firearm" under PA law (for purposes of transferring anyway).

    IANAL

    ETA: See this thread:

    http://forum.pafoa.org/pennsylvania-...ser-500-a.html
    This is mostly correct. Cannot be sold to anyone under 21 but its not a pistol. Still considered a shotgun and the handgun/ psp form is NOT required.

    I work at gander mountian, i know the place is a joke but i know the info above is correct.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: im 99.55% sure i was right, someone want to confirm the other .45%?

    If the stockless shotgun has a barrel less than 18'' and OAL < 26'', BATFE sees it as an AOW, not a shotgun, but a smoothbore handgun (AOW). Put a stock on it, better have that pesky tax stamp.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggies Coach View Post
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  8. #8
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    Default Re: im 99.55% sure i was right, someone want to confirm the other .45%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gun View Post
    If the stockless shotgun has a barrel less than 18'' and OAL < 26'', BATFE sees it as an AOW, not a shotgun, but a smoothbore handgun (AOW). Put a stock on it, better have that pesky tax stamp.
    I happen to know that the overall length is over 26 inches. 28.5 by my measurements. This is with the pistol grip attached of course. If you removed the pistol grip and had no stock or grip at all, it would be an AOW in my opinion.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: im 99.55% sure i was right, someone want to confirm the other .45%?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gun View Post
    If the stockless shotgun has a barrel less than 18'' and OAL < 26'', BATFE sees it as an AOW, not a shotgun, but a smoothbore handgun (AOW). Put a stock on it, better have that pesky tax stamp.
    Actually , if the barrel is 18"+ and the OAL is 26"+ , but doesn't have a shoulder stock , it's sold as an 'AOW'.

    Barrel length under 18" , buttstock or pistol grip , makes it a Class III firearm.

    A quick look at Mossbergs site says they don't sell them with pistol grip anymore.


    From BATFE;
    Pistol Grips and Shotguns Firearms with pistol grips attached:
    The definition of a shotgun under the GCA, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(5), is “a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosives to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or single projectile for each single pull of the trigger. Under the GCA, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(29)(A), handgun means “a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand.” Federal law provides under 18 U.S.C. 922(b)(1), that if the firearm to be transferred is “other than a rifle or shotgun,” the purchaser must be 21 years of age or older. Certain commercially produced firearms do not fall within the definition of shotgun under the GCA even though they utilize a shotgun shell for ammunition. (Here's the good part!) For example, firearms that come equipped with a pistol grip in place of the butt stock are not shotguns as defined by the GCA. A firearm with a pistol grip in lieu of the shoulder stock is not designed to be fired from the shoulder and, therefore, is not a shotgun. Since it is a firearm “other than a rifle or shotgun,” the purchaser must be 21 years of age or older. Additionally, interstate controls apply. The licensee and transferee must be residents of the same State. Other questions raised pertain to entries made in the licensee’s required records with respect to firearm “type.” These entries should indicate the firearm type as “pistol grip firearm.”

    And as always , the PA State Police will make up whatever regs they please. Not too many dealers will risk their license defying them either.
    Last edited by abner13; June 3rd, 2012 at 09:45 PM.
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  10. #10
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    Default Re: im 99.55% sure i was right, someone want to confirm the other .45%?

    It's a firearm "other than a rifle or shotgun" but it's NOT an AOW unless it's under 26" OAL. For it to be an AOW it needs to be concealable.

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